| Glory of the Cup 12:48 - Nov 3 with 6689 views | Phil |
Interview on the official site: Keith Hill admits the FA Cup was "unimportant" in his first spell at Rochdale, against the priority of winning promotion. Says this has now changed in his second spell.
With reduced ticket prices, closed stands, cut-down programme and non-league referee, I'm not sure anyone else has got the same message.
The salary of the current Staff and Players owes a debt to the past; to Man U in '86, Liverpool '96 and the televised Wolves game in '03. We've had cup success in recent seasons without the reward of a real big-money tie. Let's hope that this year, from such low-key cut-price beginnings, we can make a cup run to remember.
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| Glory of the Cup on 15:15 - Nov 3 with 4769 views | EllDale |
I'm not sure that you can blame the club for the appointment of match officials.
Let's just get this one out of the way tomorrow and be 90 minutes from Old Trafford! | | | |
| Glory of the Cup on 16:18 - Nov 3 with 4711 views | Phil |
| Glory of the Cup on 15:15 - Nov 3 by EllDale |
I'm not sure that you can blame the club for the appointment of match officials.
Let's just get this one out of the way tomorrow and be 90 minutes from Old Trafford! |
Not blaming the club FFS just pointing out the general devaluation of the FA Cup. | | | |
| Glory of the Cup on 18:03 - Nov 3 with 4601 views | aleanddale |
| Glory of the Cup on 15:15 - Nov 3 by EllDale |
I'm not sure that you can blame the club for the appointment of match officials.
Let's just get this one out of the way tomorrow and be 90 minutes from Old Trafford! |
whilst OT is the ultimate dream for us ref. windfall... the thought of going does leave me cold...
would much prefer a trip to Arsenal / Liverpool or even Wembley for Spurs away. | | | |
| Glory of the Cup on 18:19 - Nov 3 with 4578 views | TVOS1907 |
| Glory of the Cup on 16:18 - Nov 3 by Phil |
Not blaming the club FFS just pointing out the general devaluation of the FA Cup. |
You said the same things last year, Phil, before the Maidstone replay. I think the crowd was around 1300, which justified the ‘scaling down’ measures that had taken place.
Do you think the club should have charged full price admission tomorrow?
In fact, how many clubs tomorrow have scaled things down for their home tie?
You’re right in that the cup isn’t what it once was, but I feel that’s more to do with escalating prices for league admission, etc, as well as a generation of fans who aren’t used to the ‘magic of the cup’.
I’ve always advocated returning the first two rounds to north and south, but it’s been a national draw for 18 years now, so I doubt it’s going to go back to what it was before. [Post edited 3 Nov 2017 20:18]
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| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Glory of the Cup on 18:36 - Nov 3 with 4555 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Glory of the Cup on 18:19 - Nov 3 by TVOS1907 |
You said the same things last year, Phil, before the Maidstone replay. I think the crowd was around 1300, which justified the ‘scaling down’ measures that had taken place.
Do you think the club should have charged full price admission tomorrow?
In fact, how many clubs tomorrow have scaled things down for their home tie?
You’re right in that the cup isn’t what it once was, but I feel that’s more to do with escalating prices for league admission, etc, as well as a generation of fans who aren’t used to the ‘magic of the cup’.
I’ve always advocated returning the first two rounds to north and south, but it’s been a national draw for 18 years now, so I doubt it’s going to go back to what it was before. [Post edited 3 Nov 2017 20:18]
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Another issue clubs like us have is that in setting reasonable league pricing, particularly this season with the cost of a season ticket, extra games are always seen as a choice.
Add into that a long distance between the teams in geography and footballing ability and you can see why, the Rochdale public including many current season ticket holders might not turn our vs Bromley.
It's not just us with this problem; I'm sure the club could do some more to promote the game but the impact of that would have a limit. |  |
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| Glory of the Cup on 19:11 - Nov 3 with 4494 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Glory of the Cup on 18:19 - Nov 3 by TVOS1907 |
You said the same things last year, Phil, before the Maidstone replay. I think the crowd was around 1300, which justified the ‘scaling down’ measures that had taken place.
Do you think the club should have charged full price admission tomorrow?
In fact, how many clubs tomorrow have scaled things down for their home tie?
You’re right in that the cup isn’t what it once was, but I feel that’s more to do with escalating prices for league admission, etc, as well as a generation of fans who aren’t used to the ‘magic of the cup’.
I’ve always advocated returning the first two rounds to north and south, but it’s been a national draw for 18 years now, so I doubt it’s going to go back to what it was before. [Post edited 3 Nov 2017 20:18]
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The Maidstone replay wasn't on Saturday afternoon, I think the crowd tomorrow will be over 2k, despite everything |  |
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| Glory of the Cup on 19:17 - Nov 3 with 4484 views | TVOS1907 |
| Glory of the Cup on 19:11 - Nov 3 by rochdaleriddler |
The Maidstone replay wasn't on Saturday afternoon, I think the crowd tomorrow will be over 2k, despite everything |
I know it wasn’t, but the crowd was still around 600-700 less than the Walsall game the following Tuesday, which is a significant proportion.
I agree with you about tomorrow, although ‘despite everything’ is a bit over-dramatic! | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Glory of the Cup on 19:25 - Nov 3 with 4470 views | Phil |
| Glory of the Cup on 18:19 - Nov 3 by TVOS1907 |
You said the same things last year, Phil, before the Maidstone replay. I think the crowd was around 1300, which justified the ‘scaling down’ measures that had taken place.
Do you think the club should have charged full price admission tomorrow?
In fact, how many clubs tomorrow have scaled things down for their home tie?
You’re right in that the cup isn’t what it once was, but I feel that’s more to do with escalating prices for league admission, etc, as well as a generation of fans who aren’t used to the ‘magic of the cup’.
I’ve always advocated returning the first two rounds to north and south, but it’s been a national draw for 18 years now, so I doubt it’s going to go back to what it was before. [Post edited 3 Nov 2017 20:18]
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My OP was a general lament for the demise of the Cup and a hope that the players can achieve a (well-earned) glamour tie this year.
The attitude that the FA Cup is a sideshow started in the Premier League and has sadly filtered down to ourselves. At least the Premier have the excuse of prioritising their £100M per year league position. What is our reason? Maybe the defeats to FGR and FCUM haven't helped.
Regionalised rounds 1 and 2 would be effective and easy to initiate. Clubs like ours should petition the FA accordingly.
The reduction in ticket prices is of course welcome. But otherwise the message from the club has been that this game is second-class. And the message from the FA is the same by appointing a non-league referee. | | | |
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| Glory of the Cup on 19:33 - Nov 3 with 4457 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Glory of the Cup on 19:17 - Nov 3 by TVOS1907 |
I know it wasn’t, but the crowd was still around 600-700 less than the Walsall game the following Tuesday, which is a significant proportion.
I agree with you about tomorrow, although ‘despite everything’ is a bit over-dramatic! |
Haha I wasn't trying to be! I just meant in spite of the general pessimism, the expected away following and a pretty poor advertising campaign. The fixtures board is looking like it was done with a permanent marker, and is barely visible | |
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| Glory of the Cup on 20:15 - Nov 3 with 4415 views | TVOS1907 |
| Glory of the Cup on 19:25 - Nov 3 by Phil |
My OP was a general lament for the demise of the Cup and a hope that the players can achieve a (well-earned) glamour tie this year.
The attitude that the FA Cup is a sideshow started in the Premier League and has sadly filtered down to ourselves. At least the Premier have the excuse of prioritising their £100M per year league position. What is our reason? Maybe the defeats to FGR and FCUM haven't helped.
Regionalised rounds 1 and 2 would be effective and easy to initiate. Clubs like ours should petition the FA accordingly.
The reduction in ticket prices is of course welcome. But otherwise the message from the club has been that this game is second-class. And the message from the FA is the same by appointing a non-league referee. |
As discussed on the Refwatch thread, how do referees get the chance to put forward their case for promotion if they aren't appointed to ties like league v non-league (with a gap of two divisions)?
The furore over this appointment, which is part of a wider scheme to test officials in preparation for potential promotion, is bizarre. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Glory of the Cup on 20:41 - Nov 3 with 4378 views | 442Dale |
| Glory of the Cup on 20:15 - Nov 3 by TVOS1907 |
As discussed on the Refwatch thread, how do referees get the chance to put forward their case for promotion if they aren't appointed to ties like league v non-league (with a gap of two divisions)?
The furore over this appointment, which is part of a wider scheme to test officials in preparation for potential promotion, is bizarre. |
With the way some go way OTT about the refs we get during the league season, why is it seen as a negative to get one out of non-league?
Refs, like players, make mistakes. [Post edited 3 Nov 2017 20:42]
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| Glory of the Cup on 21:05 - Nov 3 with 4334 views | D_Alien |
| Glory of the Cup on 20:41 - Nov 3 by 442Dale |
With the way some go way OTT about the refs we get during the league season, why is it seen as a negative to get one out of non-league?
Refs, like players, make mistakes. [Post edited 3 Nov 2017 20:42]
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And I'm fully expecting every (normal, human) mistake to be amplified on here tomorrow as an example of non-league standard refereeing
A bit like PG telling us that our squad is non-league |  |
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| Glory of the Cup on 21:11 - Nov 3 with 4317 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Glory of the Cup on 21:05 - Nov 3 by D_Alien |
And I'm fully expecting every (normal, human) mistake to be amplified on here tomorrow as an example of non-league standard refereeing
A bit like PG telling us that our squad is non-league |
Unless it's truly dreadful I won't tbh if we can't beat these I won't blame the ref, unless he is Uriah rennieseque | |
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| Glory of the Cup on 21:14 - Nov 3 with 4310 views | D_Alien |
| Glory of the Cup on 21:11 - Nov 3 by rochdaleriddler |
Unless it's truly dreadful I won't tbh if we can't beat these I won't blame the ref, unless he is Uriah rennieseque |
Renniesque?
Some people think he's going to be a full blown laxative | |
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| Glory of the Cup on 21:31 - Nov 3 with 4274 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Glory of the Cup on 20:15 - Nov 3 by TVOS1907 |
As discussed on the Refwatch thread, how do referees get the chance to put forward their case for promotion if they aren't appointed to ties like league v non-league (with a gap of two divisions)?
The furore over this appointment, which is part of a wider scheme to test officials in preparation for potential promotion, is bizarre. |
That's a really good question.
To answer it, you have to look at the ambition of the FA and refs association - which is to give experience to up and coming referees at every level - in preparation for the next level the FA deems that individual may be capable of.
That being the case I find the use of cup competitions or any knockout format for this being bizarre.
For Andrew Miller or Neil Hair this weekend for example, you could simply start to allocate them a few (say 4) games in the league above (so League 2) between November and February each season if you thought they might be a candidate for a promotion at the end of that season.
Going up 2 levels is a bit steep particularly at bigger grounds where the crowd influence needs to be learned gradually. It's the equivalent of a League 1 ref getting a Premier League game but the argument of them needing the experience is the same. MOTD and Sky would do exactly the same scrutineering of that official in the way we are entitled to.
What you would not see is the FA giving an important one off game, such as a cup competition quarter-final, semi-final or final to an inexperienced ref. In the lower professional leagues that includes playoff final games.
It also assumes that all the non-league refs getting experience in the FA Cup are candidates for promotion, which they are not. That means that either the ref is not deemed capable after the experience (for performance reasons) or the number of available promtion opportunites are filled by better performing refs.
The Checkatrade trophy group stages are a good ground for this ref development as well as the league above format with due dilligence to the particular ref, their ability and their geography.
If we got Man United away in Round 3 of the FA Cup and the FA appointed a League 1 ref with no experience of Premier League teams or Old Trafford there would be a furore - and rightly so.
That the same difference in ability and experience as tomorrow's ref at a League 1 ground and with exactly the same development philosophy and agenda.
But it is a difficult balance because you're right, you need to develop and how you do that without throwing in a decent untried experience is a bit chicken and egg. | |
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| Glory of the Cup on 21:41 - Nov 3 with 4261 views | TVOS1907 |
| Glory of the Cup on 21:31 - Nov 3 by RAFCBLUE |
That's a really good question.
To answer it, you have to look at the ambition of the FA and refs association - which is to give experience to up and coming referees at every level - in preparation for the next level the FA deems that individual may be capable of.
That being the case I find the use of cup competitions or any knockout format for this being bizarre.
For Andrew Miller or Neil Hair this weekend for example, you could simply start to allocate them a few (say 4) games in the league above (so League 2) between November and February each season if you thought they might be a candidate for a promotion at the end of that season.
Going up 2 levels is a bit steep particularly at bigger grounds where the crowd influence needs to be learned gradually. It's the equivalent of a League 1 ref getting a Premier League game but the argument of them needing the experience is the same. MOTD and Sky would do exactly the same scrutineering of that official in the way we are entitled to.
What you would not see is the FA giving an important one off game, such as a cup competition quarter-final, semi-final or final to an inexperienced ref. In the lower professional leagues that includes playoff final games.
It also assumes that all the non-league refs getting experience in the FA Cup are candidates for promotion, which they are not. That means that either the ref is not deemed capable after the experience (for performance reasons) or the number of available promtion opportunites are filled by better performing refs.
The Checkatrade trophy group stages are a good ground for this ref development as well as the league above format with due dilligence to the particular ref, their ability and their geography.
If we got Man United away in Round 3 of the FA Cup and the FA appointed a League 1 ref with no experience of Premier League teams or Old Trafford there would be a furore - and rightly so.
That the same difference in ability and experience as tomorrow's ref at a League 1 ground and with exactly the same development philosophy and agenda.
But it is a difficult balance because you're right, you need to develop and how you do that without throwing in a decent untried experience is a bit chicken and egg. |
I would counter that Rochdale v Bromley in front of around 2000 fans is probably going to be less challenging than a lot of League 2 fixtures.
In fact, if we want to look at 'crowd influence', Mr Miller refereed Hartlepool v Tranmere the other Tuesday in front of 3,371....
Refereeing Rochdale v Bromley is nothing at all like refereeing Manchester United v League One Club, so that's not really a fair comparison.
And, it's quite well-known that the Premier League clubs have quite a lot of influence over the PGMOL and who referees their games...
I agree with you about the Checkatrade Trophy, though. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Glory of the Cup on 22:02 - Nov 3 with 4229 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Glory of the Cup on 21:41 - Nov 3 by TVOS1907 |
I would counter that Rochdale v Bromley in front of around 2000 fans is probably going to be less challenging than a lot of League 2 fixtures.
In fact, if we want to look at 'crowd influence', Mr Miller refereed Hartlepool v Tranmere the other Tuesday in front of 3,371....
Refereeing Rochdale v Bromley is nothing at all like refereeing Manchester United v League One Club, so that's not really a fair comparison.
And, it's quite well-known that the Premier League clubs have quite a lot of influence over the PGMOL and who referees their games...
I agree with you about the Checkatrade Trophy, though. |
I don't disagree with your principles behind that.
My issue with any "trialing" appointment in any knockout game of a knockout competition.
If you want to stretch Andrew Miller for example tomorrow then give him Blackburn vs Barnet or Wigan vs Crawley.
Definite step up, Premier League facility and a ground that will be as representively attended as ours.
You also take away the potential for arguing bias for a team that has been referreed before or in the same league. Completely impartial and geographically as sensible as our game.
Problem is a bit like the PGMOL, clubs like Blackburn and Wigan would make their feelings known and that would potentially be to the detriment of the ref being pushed upwards if the feedback isn't postive.
There is no way the FA would get away with the argument of "giving a ref experience" in my League One vs Premier League example which is exactly why they don't do it.
The principle is sound, it's the format chosen I've an issue with. A bad decision tomorrow for either us or Bromley could be terminal vs the potential riches of progressing with a correct decision.
The more experienced the ref the more I would hope that that decision would be correct, albeit mistakes can be made by anyone and at any level. | |
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| Glory of the Cup on 22:08 - Nov 3 with 4219 views | D_Alien |
| Glory of the Cup on 22:02 - Nov 3 by RAFCBLUE |
I don't disagree with your principles behind that.
My issue with any "trialing" appointment in any knockout game of a knockout competition.
If you want to stretch Andrew Miller for example tomorrow then give him Blackburn vs Barnet or Wigan vs Crawley.
Definite step up, Premier League facility and a ground that will be as representively attended as ours.
You also take away the potential for arguing bias for a team that has been referreed before or in the same league. Completely impartial and geographically as sensible as our game.
Problem is a bit like the PGMOL, clubs like Blackburn and Wigan would make their feelings known and that would potentially be to the detriment of the ref being pushed upwards if the feedback isn't postive.
There is no way the FA would get away with the argument of "giving a ref experience" in my League One vs Premier League example which is exactly why they don't do it.
The principle is sound, it's the format chosen I've an issue with. A bad decision tomorrow for either us or Bromley could be terminal vs the potential riches of progressing with a correct decision.
The more experienced the ref the more I would hope that that decision would be correct, albeit mistakes can be made by anyone and at any level. |
Why would a referee be biased if he's refereed the same team / in the same league? | |
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| Glory of the Cup on 22:10 - Nov 3 with 4209 views | TVOS1907 |
| Glory of the Cup on 22:02 - Nov 3 by RAFCBLUE |
I don't disagree with your principles behind that.
My issue with any "trialing" appointment in any knockout game of a knockout competition.
If you want to stretch Andrew Miller for example tomorrow then give him Blackburn vs Barnet or Wigan vs Crawley.
Definite step up, Premier League facility and a ground that will be as representively attended as ours.
You also take away the potential for arguing bias for a team that has been referreed before or in the same league. Completely impartial and geographically as sensible as our game.
Problem is a bit like the PGMOL, clubs like Blackburn and Wigan would make their feelings known and that would potentially be to the detriment of the ref being pushed upwards if the feedback isn't postive.
There is no way the FA would get away with the argument of "giving a ref experience" in my League One vs Premier League example which is exactly why they don't do it.
The principle is sound, it's the format chosen I've an issue with. A bad decision tomorrow for either us or Bromley could be terminal vs the potential riches of progressing with a correct decision.
The more experienced the ref the more I would hope that that decision would be correct, albeit mistakes can be made by anyone and at any level. |
Eh?
How can you argue against giving Andrew Miller the Dale v Bromley tie, but indicate it might be OK for him to go to Blackburn or Wigan?
Why would he, a referee from County Durham, be potentially biased for a team in Kent, just because he referees in their league?
Was his dad biased for us v Maidstone last November or was Charles Breakspear biased for us in the first game at Maidstone?
What about David Webb at Barrow in January?
Like I said last night, Mr Miller has obviously gained good enough marks so far this season to be rewarded with a first round tie. It just so happens to be ours and I don't see why there is such a furore about it.
God help him if he isn't 100% perfect tomorrow! [Post edited 3 Nov 2017 22:20]
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| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Glory of the Cup on 22:12 - Nov 3 with 4190 views | 442Dale |
A ref is a ref, why can't he just be allowed to ref? | |
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| Glory of the Cup on 22:12 - Nov 3 with 4190 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Glory of the Cup on 21:14 - Nov 3 by D_Alien |
Renniesque?
Some people think he's going to be a full blown laxative |
Haha funny that, unwanted s my bad  | |
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| Glory of the Cup on 22:18 - Nov 3 with 4172 views | D_Alien |
| Glory of the Cup on 22:12 - Nov 3 by rochdaleriddler |
Haha funny that, unwanted s my bad |
Let's hope we're laughing tomoz! | |
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| Glory of the Cup on 22:46 - Nov 3 with 4133 views | nordenblue |
| Glory of the Cup on 22:02 - Nov 3 by RAFCBLUE |
I don't disagree with your principles behind that.
My issue with any "trialing" appointment in any knockout game of a knockout competition.
If you want to stretch Andrew Miller for example tomorrow then give him Blackburn vs Barnet or Wigan vs Crawley.
Definite step up, Premier League facility and a ground that will be as representively attended as ours.
You also take away the potential for arguing bias for a team that has been referreed before or in the same league. Completely impartial and geographically as sensible as our game.
Problem is a bit like the PGMOL, clubs like Blackburn and Wigan would make their feelings known and that would potentially be to the detriment of the ref being pushed upwards if the feedback isn't postive.
There is no way the FA would get away with the argument of "giving a ref experience" in my League One vs Premier League example which is exactly why they don't do it.
The principle is sound, it's the format chosen I've an issue with. A bad decision tomorrow for either us or Bromley could be terminal vs the potential riches of progressing with a correct decision.
The more experienced the ref the more I would hope that that decision would be correct, albeit mistakes can be made by anyone and at any level. |
Whilst you've made some good points previously your last paragraph kind of argues against itself,regardless of how experienced the ref is he WILL make mistakes thats just human error. Then again I've seen some very experienced refs make some horrendous decisions and visa versa | | | |
| Glory of the Cup on 22:47 - Nov 3 with 4131 views | chalkyncfc |
After going two nil down against Bristol Rovers the mighty Notts played the best football that I've seen them play in years to win 4-2  | | | |
| Glory of the Cup on 22:47 - Nov 3 with 4131 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Glory of the Cup on 22:18 - Nov 3 by D_Alien |
Let's hope we're laughing tomoz! |
I'm confident, I just need to avoid talking to away fans before the game, every time I do that we lose | |
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