| Employment law 15:51 - Jun 24 with 4314 views | stowmarketrange |
Does anyone on here know anything much about employment law?
Without going into too much detail and boring you all,I got an email from my employer saying that there was a good chance that I’d be made redundant as the work had dropped off drastically to what it was pre covid.
I was given a choice of roles in depots to move to,but they seem to have been filled now,even though the consultation period doesn’t end until the 30th June.
I received another email today that said that the only job role open to me is one where I’d have to be away all week and sleep in my truck at night.Or I can resign if I didn’t want to do that.
Considering I’m at home every day based on my old role,is this a reasonable offer of an alternative,or do I suspect they haven’t got a legal case and hope that I go quietly?
I’m 60 in September and spending nights away sleeping somewhere in frozen Scotland 4 nights a week doesn’t sound like my idea of fun.
They also want my answer by tomorrow at noon,which is still in the supposed consultation period.
Any advice would be much appreciated. |  | | |  |
| Employment law on 16:14 - Jun 24 with 3185 views | Stanisgod |
Are you in a trade union |  |
| It's being so happy that keeps me going. |
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| Employment law on 16:22 - Jun 24 with 3164 views | WokingR |
Check your house insurance
It may seem an odd suggestion but, if you're with a decent insurer, it should include a free legal advice helpline. |  | | |
| Employment law on 16:25 - Jun 24 with 3154 views | stowmarketrange |
| Employment law on 16:14 - Jun 24 by Stanisgod |
Are you in a trade union |
I was,but I left 10 years ago when I left my previous company.Ironically it was because we were trying to get the company to recognise the union that the company simply closed the depot and made everybody redundant.So I thought what’s the point of staying in it if they’re going to shaft you anyway? | | | |
| Employment law on 16:58 - Jun 24 with 3104 views | PlanetHonneywood |
I’m not going to advise as it’s been 10 years since I practiced as an employment lawyer in the UK and things will have developed and I’m not up to speed.
However, do not resign!
If there is a genuine redundancy reason and the employer conducts a reasonable procedure to select you, then dismissing you on the ground of redundancy might be considered a fair dismissal. Now unless it’s massively changed since my time, then if the employer offers an alternative job, it has to be a reasonable job alternative. If it’s not, then the worker can lawfully decline. However, if it is a reasonable job alternative and the worker declines, it can affect their right to a redundancy payment.
If the employer wishes to terminate a worker on the ground of redundancy, then they are required to pay the worker a redundancy payment; provide notice and pay any other entitlements. If you resign, then it will mean you brought the employment to an end and I suspect you’d lose your right to a redundancy payment.
This is why workers should join TUs and as someone suggested, look at your house insurance. The Citizens Advice Bureau do great work, but they are beyond over stretched. I seem to recall the Employment Lawyers Association offered free consultancy - but I might be wrong. You could also google your local Law Society and ask if there are and firms in your parish that might give free advice.
Sorry I can’t help, but you need up to date advice and I’m more au fait with laws in the Gulf. Good luck to you Sir, I fear there are millions more about to join you. |  |
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| Employment law on 17:05 - Jun 24 with 3082 views | ted_hendrix |
I hope i'm still correct but they legally have to abide by the consultation period date which as you say is the 30th June, this is the date that you agree with your employers what is happening not tomorrow at noon, I'm quite sure you've got enough nous to keep all e-mail correspondence. |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
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| Employment law on 17:10 - Jun 24 with 3068 views | stowmarketrange |
Thanks for the advice chaps.I checked with the home insurance company and they weren’t any help.
I certainly won’t be resigning,and I’ve got my email prepared with all my reasons why I won’t be able to take up their offer.
There are loads of us in this company that have treated differently over these jobs losses and I think they want people to just walk away,which isn’t something I’m prepared to do.
I’ll keep you informed of what Mr Scrooge says tomorrow. | | | |
| Employment law on 17:17 - Jun 24 with 3054 views | stowmarketrange |
| Employment law on 17:05 - Jun 24 by ted_hendrix |
I hope i'm still correct but they legally have to abide by the consultation period date which as you say is the 30th June, this is the date that you agree with your employers what is happening not tomorrow at noon, I'm quite sure you've got enough nous to keep all e-mail correspondence. |
Luckily they sent all the emails by post too.They seem to have already told some people what will happen to them,and some have even started on these new roles already. | | | |
| Employment law on 17:45 - Jun 24 with 3009 views | dezzar |
Going through this myself , again.The Citizens Advice people were helpfully last time.As others have said they shouldn't be doing anything before the end of the consultation period.Jobs are made redundant not people therefore I don't think they can force you into an unsuitable post.Good luck |  | | |
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| Employment law on 17:57 - Jun 24 with 2983 views | SimplyNico |
Hi
There are two different categories of redundancies depending upon how many positions are to be declared redundant. The first type is collective redundancy. This is a right under the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992, s.188. It is a European collective right and applies where an employer is proposing to dismiss as redundant 20 or more employees from an establishment within a 90 day period. Establishment is broadly defined as being a place of work with its own localised management structure. If you work in company that has a series of depots, each depot is likely to be its own establishment and the employer has to consider whether 20 or more redundancies are proposed at each such establishment. If there are less than 20 potentially redundant employees at an establishment, the right is not engaged.
Where the right is engaged, the employer is required to consult with "appropriate representatives" of the affected employees as to means of: (i) avoiding the redundancies; (ii) reducing the number of redundancies; and (iii) mitigating the consequences of the redundancies. A collective redundancy consultant letter would have to have been sent to the representatives (which will be a union where one is recognised or employee representatives where there is no union).
The length of consultation depends upon the number it is proposed to dismiss - between 20 and 99 employees, it is 30 days, and 100 or more it is 45 days.
If the employer dismisses any employee before the end of the collective consultation period or where the employer simply fails to consult, a protective award of up to 90 days pay per employee can be ordered.
From what you have said, there is a consultation period. I cannot tell if there are more than 20 employees affected. If so, see above; if no, the right does not apply.
The second type is individual redundancy. Two sets of rights apply here for employees under the Employment Rights Act 1996, Parts X and XI for who have two or more years' continuous service. The first is to receive a statutory redundancy payment in the event of dismissal by reason of redundancy. The second is to not be unfairly dismissed. You do not say how long you have been employed by the company; but the two years' service point is crucial.
Redundancy has a number of different definitions. However, the one you are describing sounds like the situation where the employer's requirements for employees to do "work of a particular kind" have ceased or diminished. A drop off in work is a diminution and so the definition would be engaged.
In that case, in order to avoid a claim or claims for unfair dismissal, the employer is required to:
1. Notify the employees that their positions are at risk of redundancy (NB - not "your positions are redundant). This is so that the employees can advise themselves as to the position and consider positions both at the employer and externally;
2. Consult with the affected employees as to alternatives to redundancy (eg, reduce costs in marketing, central office and so). Typically, this is a dead letter. Salary cost is usually the quickest and most extensive cut in any business.
3. In the event that consultation as to alternatives produces no viable alternatives, the employer is required to offer alternative employment.
It is not up to the employee to resign in that situation; as another poster has said, you can make the employer terminate you. In that case, you would be entitled to contractual notice, accrued but untaken holiday pay and a statutory redundancy payment calculated using this - https://www.gov.uk/calculate-your-redundancy-pay
To be clear, do not resign.
All such cases turn on their own particular facts and there is not enough information in what you have said to confirm whether this is an unfair dismissal.
Indeed, another possibility is that it might be age discrimination (as a very broad rule of thumb, you would need to show that you were in the order of 10 years older than other affected employees and that they were given the pick of the jobs before you).
Do you have legal expenses insurance on your household contents policy (it is very typical). If so, they can advise and run a case for you (if you have a more than 50% chance of success). The other possibility is that you speak to a Citizens Advice Bureau. They tend to be well meaning pains in the backside and might force a settlement due to the cost of having to deal with them.
Hope that helps. | | | |
| Employment law on 18:41 - Jun 24 with 2934 views | stowmarketrange |
Thanks for all the advice.I Bit the bullet again and joined Unite this afternoon,and they have a case ongoing with my employer.
They advised me to not reply to their email in a letter sent out to all 60 unite members in our depot.
It seems that my employer is deliberately choosing to close our yard because of the union and it’s members,so it’s a repeat of 10 years ago at my last company.
I’ll let you know how it all pans out and once again,thanks for all your advice.
Best wishes to you all.
Just an update on events.The story made the east Anglian daily times paper today,so that’s more fuel to the fire.Sorry I don’t know how to do links so you’ll have to investigate it yourselves if you want to. [Post edited 24 Jun 2020 19:41]
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| Employment law on 22:28 - Jun 24 with 2786 views | Boston |
| Employment law on 18:41 - Jun 24 by stowmarketrange |
Thanks for all the advice.I Bit the bullet again and joined Unite this afternoon,and they have a case ongoing with my employer.
They advised me to not reply to their email in a letter sent out to all 60 unite members in our depot.
It seems that my employer is deliberately choosing to close our yard because of the union and it’s members,so it’s a repeat of 10 years ago at my last company.
I’ll let you know how it all pans out and once again,thanks for all your advice.
Best wishes to you all.
Just an update on events.The story made the east Anglian daily times paper today,so that’s more fuel to the fire.Sorry I don’t know how to do links so you’ll have to investigate it yourselves if you want to. [Post edited 24 Jun 2020 19:41]
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Thought you drove for the P.O. they franchised out HGV drivers? | |
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| Employment law on 22:48 - Jun 24 with 2754 views | stowmarketrange |
| Employment law on 22:28 - Jun 24 by Boston |
Thought you drove for the P.O. they franchised out HGV drivers? |
I left Royal Mail in 2004.Redundancy again,but voluntary that time.Ive only ever had 4 jobs in 40 years,and I’ve been made redundant in 3 of them if I get it this time too.
Just call me Jonah. | | | |
| Employment law on 22:53 - Jun 24 with 2743 views | MickS |
Good luck Stow. | | | |
| Employment law on 22:54 - Jun 24 with 2737 views | Boston |
Mate of mine..no name in case he's still around, was in the Falklands for the Argy Bargy. Ship was sunk and he was transfered - you guessed it, that got sunk as well. They sent him home. | |
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| Employment law on 23:01 - Jun 24 with 2725 views | Loftgirl |
| Employment law on 22:54 - Jun 24 by Boston |
Mate of mine..no name in case he's still around, was in the Falklands for the Argy Bargy. Ship was sunk and he was transfered - you guessed it, that got sunk as well. They sent him home. |
During the war............. |  | | |
| Employment law on 23:09 - Jun 24 with 2711 views | GloryHunter |
Sorry Stow, can't help, but good luck. |  | | |
| Employment law on 23:32 - Jun 24 with 2675 views | 2Thomas2Bowles |
| Employment law on 18:41 - Jun 24 by stowmarketrange |
Thanks for all the advice.I Bit the bullet again and joined Unite this afternoon,and they have a case ongoing with my employer.
They advised me to not reply to their email in a letter sent out to all 60 unite members in our depot.
It seems that my employer is deliberately choosing to close our yard because of the union and it’s members,so it’s a repeat of 10 years ago at my last company.
I’ll let you know how it all pans out and once again,thanks for all your advice.
Best wishes to you all.
Just an update on events.The story made the east Anglian daily times paper today,so that’s more fuel to the fire.Sorry I don’t know how to do links so you’ll have to investigate it yourselves if you want to. [Post edited 24 Jun 2020 19:41]
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This it?
https://www.eadt.co.uk/business/goldstar-transport-woolpit-depot-closure-allegat
Good luck mate. |  |
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| Employment law on 23:37 - Jun 24 with 2668 views | distortR |
good luck Stow. | | | |
| Employment law on 00:25 - Jun 25 with 2633 views | timcocking |
When we employed loads of people in UK, the law is so strongly on the side of the workers, that they'll always win the case no matter what they'd done. If you take it to a tribunal, you'd almost certainly win, or that's been my experience. Make them sack you, then it's wrongful dismissal. |  | | |
| Employment law on 04:18 - Jun 25 with 2599 views | Benny_the_Ball |
If you have been permanently employed for over 2 years then the chances are that you are entitled to at least statutory redundancy. Note that the 2 year threshold includes any notice period so if, for example, you have been employed for 1 year and 11 months but have a 1 month notice period written into your contract, then you qualify.
Do not quit as you'll lose your entitlement to redundancy as well compromise any claim for benefits as you will have been deemed to have voluntarily left your job.
I'm not aware of any legal requirement to respond to the offer of alternative roles so I would avoid responding to this question. If there are any alternatives that interest you then bear in mind that your employer can't offer roles that are at risk of or have been made redundant.
During the consultation period you may wish to inquire as to what severance package your employer intends to offer in the event of the role being made redundant as it's not uncommon for companies to pay more than the statutory minimum (typically in exchange for signing an NDA).
You will also be entitled to payment in lieu of unused leave as well as your notice period. In theory they can ask you to work your notice, however in practice this is uncommon due to the risk of keeping on disgruntled employees and the possibility of said employee calling in sick anyway. |  | | |
| Employment law on 07:35 - Jun 25 with 2535 views | stowmarketrange |
That’s the one mate thanks.Their idea of worker relations are straight out of the Victorian era.A bit like my computer skills. | | | |
| Employment law on 08:16 - Jun 25 with 2501 views | joe90 |
Sorry to hear about the work situation.
If the new job isn't suitable for you should qualify for redundancy pay.
It's important that you engage properly with the process even if your employer doesn't, I would recommend responding to the job offer, clearly explaining the reason why you can't accept the new job.
They should offer you redundancy pay, if they don't contact the Acas Helpline: 0300 123 1100.
They will explain your options, but remember they won't tell you what you should do. |  | | |
| Employment law on 08:49 - Jun 25 with 2472 views | stowmarketrange |
| Employment law on 08:16 - Jun 25 by joe90 |
Sorry to hear about the work situation.
If the new job isn't suitable for you should qualify for redundancy pay.
It's important that you engage properly with the process even if your employer doesn't, I would recommend responding to the job offer, clearly explaining the reason why you can't accept the new job.
They should offer you redundancy pay, if they don't contact the Acas Helpline: 0300 123 1100.
They will explain your options, but remember they won't tell you what you should do. |
Cheers mate.The union are advising us not to reply to the email as it’s illegal to send out a threatening email like that,but I’m concerned that if I don’t reply that they’ll take it that I’ve resigned.
I was going to send a simple email stating that I didn’t think that their job alternative was a reasonable replacement for my existing role,and the matter is in the hands of my union.
I do have a list of reasons why I think it’s unacceptable,but I wasn’t sure it was relevant to send them to my employer yet. | | | |
| Employment law on 08:57 - Jun 25 with 2459 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
You are very lucky that Unite are taking this on for you! Normally they won’t represent a member if their issue took place prior to signing up.
Good luck to you and I hope it works out. |  | | |
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