| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) 12:45 - May 30 with 3098 views | A40Bosh |
Gents/Ladies
In the vain hope that someone has experience or advice on this.........
My Mrs is currently employed at a secondary school in LB of Hillingdon and they are restructuring due to budget cuts and her team of "non teaching" tutors are all being made redundant at the end of this school year.
Fortunately at the same time she found out she was then told that a 6th Form College in the LB of Harrow was looking for just such a team and she applied and quickly secured one of the positions for a role starting in August - Although it will be 3 days and not 5 days and therefore much less money.
Here is the problem. Her current school have told her that once she is made redundant she cannot start work in another local authority type role for a month and a day after her final day otherwise it will be classed as continuity of employment. So even if she went from her current school role and then worked in a hospital she would not get any redundancy even though she had been made redundant!!!
Our argument is that my wife is employed part time term time only and therefore she is not technically paid for the holiday period after the school breaks up for summer hols on 19th July. Therefore we would think that if she starts at the new place after 20th August she would be ok. However the school are now saying that her last day of employment is at the end of the school year, which is the day before the start of the new term and new school year in September.
I think she is being royally shafted because the school are also now refusing to let them go and terminate their contract early to avoid this because the council will question it and once they are told it is because she has found a new job for next school year they will refuse and force her to lose her redundancy payment or forgo the job offer.
It just stinks that part time term time employees (mainly mums trying to bring in some much needed cash) are treated so badly by employers. [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 13:11 - May 30 with 2355 views | Hook |
Mrs Hook had the same problem a few years ago.
Your Mrs may well work term time only but she will be payed pro rata for 12 months hence last pay day end of August. |  | | |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 13:30 - May 30 with 2332 views | A40Bosh |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 13:11 - May 30 by Hook |
Mrs Hook had the same problem a few years ago.
Your Mrs may well work term time only but she will be payed pro rata for 12 months hence last pay day end of August. |
That is exactly the case Hook and it is debatable whether pay day should make any difference to her contracted hours of employment.
A colleague of hers reckons there was a test case in the Welsh courts a couple of years ago which the employee won because the judge ruled that the council employing her may well have been paying her pro rata over a 12month period (in the same way as other teachers were paid), but that was for their accounting convenience only and that should not mean that the "term time only" based employees should classed as still employed after they had completed their contractual hours on the last day of term and therefore they directed that the last day of term should be the date she was made redundant not the end of August.
I cant find much on that test case on the net to support it though. | |
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| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 13:47 - May 30 with 2308 views | E17hoop |
I'd question why the school don't want the LEA to know; the reason you've given doesn't sound likely. My guess is that they want to demonstrate the savings in their next school year to make them look good.
Ask the school for their Equality Impact Assessment (EIA) for the restructure. As you mentioned, it is likely that more women than men are affected by the restructure and it is unlikely the school will have a strong EIA (or one at all). With a poor EIA (or without one), your wife can threaten to make loud noises about equality with the LEA/council. the school will change their mind. [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 14:10 - May 30 with 2271 views | beemmeup72 |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 13:47 - May 30 by E17hoop |
I'd question why the school don't want the LEA to know; the reason you've given doesn't sound likely. My guess is that they want to demonstrate the savings in their next school year to make them look good.
Ask the school for their Equality Impact Assessment (EIA) for the restructure. As you mentioned, it is likely that more women than men are affected by the restructure and it is unlikely the school will have a strong EIA (or one at all). With a poor EIA (or without one), your wife can threaten to make loud noises about equality with the LEA/council. the school will change their mind. [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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You need to find out the exact date employment is terminated as it should be the last day of school term. if she gains employment under Harrow then she won't have the same employer as her employer is Hillingdon at the moment. I used to be a school governor and had this issue a few years back when they wanted rid of teaching assistants, the TA's then went to Ealing and had no issues with redudancy payments.
is she part of a union as they would know the answer or maybe one of her work mates is and can ask the question.
Just hope these terms have not changed....
good luck |  | | |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 14:17 - May 30 with 2258 views | A40Bosh |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 13:47 - May 30 by E17hoop |
I'd question why the school don't want the LEA to know; the reason you've given doesn't sound likely. My guess is that they want to demonstrate the savings in their next school year to make them look good.
Ask the school for their Equality Impact Assessment (EIA) for the restructure. As you mentioned, it is likely that more women than men are affected by the restructure and it is unlikely the school will have a strong EIA (or one at all). With a poor EIA (or without one), your wife can threaten to make loud noises about equality with the LEA/council. the school will change their mind. [Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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Oh, dont worry they have got that one covered.
part of her final settlment is deferred for 3 months after she left when she can write to them and confirm that she has not taken any legal action against the school, then she will be paid her last couple of coppers!!
VVanl<ers the lot of them. | |
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| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 14:21 - May 30 with 2254 views | E17hoop |
It's still interesting that the school don't want the LEA to know - although she works at the school, the school have made the decision and managed the process, she is employed by the LEA. As a result, her notice of redundancy, etc should be issued by the LEA/council. | |
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| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 14:23 - May 30 with 2252 views | A40Bosh |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 14:21 - May 30 by E17hoop |
It's still interesting that the school don't want the LEA to know - although she works at the school, the school have made the decision and managed the process, she is employed by the LEA. As a result, her notice of redundancy, etc should be issued by the LEA/council. |
Governing Body are apparently pulling all the strings on this one not the Civic Centre. | |
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| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 14:28 - May 30 with 2242 views | E17hoop |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 14:23 - May 30 by A40Bosh |
Governing Body are apparently pulling all the strings on this one not the Civic Centre. |
The GB are delegated the responsibility by the borough. Unless it's an Academy, a simple check of her payslip should be enough - who pays her...the school or LB Hillingdon? | |
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| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 14:33 - May 30 with 2229 views | A40Bosh |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 14:28 - May 30 by E17hoop |
The GB are delegated the responsibility by the borough. Unless it's an Academy, a simple check of her payslip should be enough - who pays her...the school or LB Hillingdon? |
it is def the LBofH! | |
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| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 14:42 - May 30 with 2214 views | beemmeup72 |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 14:33 - May 30 by A40Bosh |
it is def the LBofH! |
Could be really sneaky and just phone up payroll at the civic centre and uquire about redundancy payments | | | |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 14:44 - May 30 with 2208 views | E17hoop |
This is quite complex.
In April LB Hillingdon brought in a new funding model for schools:
http://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/media/pdf/7/o/Scheme_for_financing_schools_April_20
As a result the funding of redundancies/retirements is also delegated to the school.
Have a look from page 41 on the attached doc - it also explains the 3 month timetable you mentioned before since the school will not be refunded the payment back from the LEA:
The school will be notified within one week, once a decision is reached.
Schools will be able to claim the reimbursement of redundancy costs by
submitting an invoice, one for the first tranche payment and a further
invoice for the second and final tranche payment at least three months
after the relevant persons have left the schools employment and signed
the copy documentation confirming that they have not obtained further
employment.
My belief is that 'further employment' in these terms is within LB Hillingdon and it has been misinterpreted by the GB.
My suggestion would be for your wife to check with the LEA - I assume she's approached her union if she's a member, or that the other affected staff have? | |
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| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 14:47 - May 30 with 2203 views | A40Bosh |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 14:42 - May 30 by beemmeup72 |
Could be really sneaky and just phone up payroll at the civic centre and uquire about redundancy payments |
As a fallback my news has now spoken to the head teacher at the new place and he is considering allowing her to come and start her "training" off contract and not technically employ her until end of Sept and then she can stick two fingers up to Hillingdon and then try and angle for gardening leave once the yr 11 kids go off for exams in June. | |
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| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 14:58 - May 30 with 2188 views | Hook |
"My belief is that 'further employment' in these terms is within LB Hillingdon and it has been misinterpreted by the GB."
E17 your wrong I'm sorry to say it applies to any Local Authority Employment.
Superanuation could be a problem as you were not allowed to transfer funds either, they were frozen or payed up deppending on age. | | | |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 15:14 - May 30 with 2165 views | A40Bosh |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 14:58 - May 30 by Hook |
"My belief is that 'further employment' in these terms is within LB Hillingdon and it has been misinterpreted by the GB."
E17 your wrong I'm sorry to say it applies to any Local Authority Employment.
Superanuation could be a problem as you were not allowed to transfer funds either, they were frozen or payed up deppending on age. |
Hook, E17, thanks for the responses chaps - I'll take a look at the document
I am caught in the middle of your helpful but conflicting opinions, but my Mrs was told that if she got a job in Yorkshire, Harrow or Kent, it would count as continuity of service with a local authority.
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| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 15:31 - May 30 with 2138 views | A40Bosh |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 15:14 - May 30 by A40Bosh |
Hook, E17, thanks for the responses chaps - I'll take a look at the document
I am caught in the middle of your helpful but conflicting opinions, but my Mrs was told that if she got a job in Yorkshire, Harrow or Kent, it would count as continuity of service with a local authority.
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The wording of the 2nd tranche reimbursement payment also is worded to indicate that the employee will have to sign a form three months later saying that they are still not in a job - that is not the same as they were told by the school - they said they only wanted confirmation that the employee has not issued legal proceedings against the school or council - nothing to do with being employed or not at that stage! | |
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| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 15:36 - May 30 with 2136 views | Hook |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 15:14 - May 30 by A40Bosh |
Hook, E17, thanks for the responses chaps - I'll take a look at the document
I am caught in the middle of your helpful but conflicting opinions, but my Mrs was told that if she got a job in Yorkshire, Harrow or Kent, it would count as continuity of service with a local authority.
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Your Mrs has been told what we were told by a friend who is an Employment Lawyer. "got you by the gonads" was his comment.
The new school head sounds like he might be able to do somthing but Mrs H was told to volunteer to start with when she found a new post.
Didn't do it but went to a private school not under LA control.
Good luck with sorting it out.
She will have to look at what the finnances are before she takes the plunge .
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| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 15:51 - May 30 with 2113 views | kensalriser |
This is absolutely what trades unions are for. |  |
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| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 16:06 - May 30 with 2096 views | A40Bosh |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 15:51 - May 30 by kensalriser |
This is absolutely what trades unions are for. |
and ATL do not appear to be very good at it!!! | |
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| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 16:16 - May 30 with 2089 views | Metallica_Hoop |
Someone I know at the beeb did the same but came back as temporary staff doing the same job (also part time).
I'm not sure if that affects you but it's one way around it. |  |
| Beer and Beef has made us what we are - The Prince Regent |
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| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 16:48 - May 30 with 2059 views | CiderwithRsie |
It's a few years since I worked in this field, so my knowledge may not be quite up to date, but in this context the phrase "continuous employment" does not make sense. Continuity of employment is relevant when deciding whether or not an employee can claim certain rights [such as, er, a statutory redundancy payment..] which require the employee to have been continuously employed by the SAME employer. Harrow and Hillingdon are not the same employers, no matter what idiots in HR or similar may tell you, as indeed your wife will find if she gets made redundant by Harrow in the next 6 months or so.
I think you must be referring to either
[a] a contractual [as opposed to statutory] redundancy payment - usually more than the pittance paid out under sta. redundancy - in which case the b*ggers can make up their own rules, so long as these were agreed by your wife when she signed her contract, or accepted explicitly or by her behaviour subsequently; or
that due to the notice arrangements [exacerbated by the nature of school term-times and holidays] she will still be in employment by Hillingdon at the time she is supposed to start work with Harrow. In which case, I'm afraid they are right - one of the exceptions to the right to Stat. Redundancy Pay is where you find work before the end of the employer's notice period. Most halfway reasonable employers will pay out anyway on the basis that it's no skin off their nose but in this case it looks as though they have a financial reason not to in that it stops them re-claiming from central gvt.
I will have a check to see if I can find out whether the fact that the new job is so much less than the original makes a difference
If however neither of the above apply, its worth noting that Statutory Redundancy Pay is statutory and it doesn't matter a damn whether or not Hillingdon can reclaim it from anyone else | | | |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 17:03 - May 30 with 2039 views | A40Bosh |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 16:48 - May 30 by CiderwithRsie |
It's a few years since I worked in this field, so my knowledge may not be quite up to date, but in this context the phrase "continuous employment" does not make sense. Continuity of employment is relevant when deciding whether or not an employee can claim certain rights [such as, er, a statutory redundancy payment..] which require the employee to have been continuously employed by the SAME employer. Harrow and Hillingdon are not the same employers, no matter what idiots in HR or similar may tell you, as indeed your wife will find if she gets made redundant by Harrow in the next 6 months or so.
I think you must be referring to either
[a] a contractual [as opposed to statutory] redundancy payment - usually more than the pittance paid out under sta. redundancy - in which case the b*ggers can make up their own rules, so long as these were agreed by your wife when she signed her contract, or accepted explicitly or by her behaviour subsequently; or
that due to the notice arrangements [exacerbated by the nature of school term-times and holidays] she will still be in employment by Hillingdon at the time she is supposed to start work with Harrow. In which case, I'm afraid they are right - one of the exceptions to the right to Stat. Redundancy Pay is where you find work before the end of the employer's notice period. Most halfway reasonable employers will pay out anyway on the basis that it's no skin off their nose but in this case it looks as though they have a financial reason not to in that it stops them re-claiming from central gvt.
I will have a check to see if I can find out whether the fact that the new job is so much less than the original makes a difference
If however neither of the above apply, its worth noting that Statutory Redundancy Pay is statutory and it doesn't matter a damn whether or not Hillingdon can reclaim it from anyone else |
Thanks again for all these helpful comments.
Your point below is exactly what I think is the case. I am also concerned that if my wife admits to having accepted the new job before she has formally received her notice of redundancy (technically she is in "consultation" until 31 May) that they might even withdraw the stat redundancy altogether based on her accepting another local authority job within a month and a day of her final day under Hillingdon. As you say the bean counters in this current economic environment will try and ensure they get best value and not pay out - which in real terms is just a couple of grand - if they can get away with it. It's not about the individual.
They really have her by the proverbials I feel and I just hope the HT at her new school will be able to do something to postpone the hire date and allow her to attend voluntarily for a month whilst undertaking "training" for her future job.
They get you every way. Term Time Only means she get paid much less than teachers as she does not get paid for the summer holiday and even when they kick you out they say you are employed until the end of the school year which is the day before the new one starts in Sept.
Some times you really want to stick it to the man! | |
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| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 17:09 - May 30 with 2029 views | E17hoop |
"technically she is in "consultation" until 31 May"
That's why they don't want her going to the LEA - she isn't redundant, it is still being consulted upon, and her job may be safe after consultation.
Thanks Hook *slaps forehead* Continuous would mean LA employment if it contributed to the same pension scheme. | |
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| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 17:28 - May 30 with 2011 views | CiderwithRsie |
Checked the point about the new employment being part-time:
I don't have all the resources I used to have, particularly case-law sources, but a check through the relevant statute [Employment Rights Act 1996] shows that the way she is caught is not down to the actual job she gets but down to her terminating her own employment, for any reason, within the notice period. As such the rate of pay etc. wouldn't be relevant any way I can see. [section 142 (1) (a)]. Strictly speaking under section 136 (3) it remains a redundancy dismissal, [so not a resignation if, for example, she needed to claim benefit;] she just isn't entitled to any money for it. I note that under s 142, in order to avoid paying the redundancy payment, the employer has to serve a counter-notice when they get her resignation, requiring her to remain in their employment until their notice expires. I suppose she could gamble on them failing to get their act together and then pursuing them for the payment if they don't. In fact I'm not sure it would be much of a gamble, because if they did serve the counter-notice, she could then revert to her original plan and either write off the payment in order to start the new job or comply with the counter-notice by withdrawing her resignation and serving out her time. I'm not sure what would happen either if she called the bluff of the counter-notice by turning up at the school during the holiday!
If she seriously wants to try any such thing, she really should get some specialist advice [i.e. not just my ramblings] and wave a copy of the relevant section of the Act under the nose of the specialist to ensure they get the point. It's fairly easily found on-line through HMSO.
"They really have her by the proverbials I feel and I just hope the HT at her new school will be able to do something to postpone the hire date and allow her to attend voluntarily for a month whilst undertaking "training" for her future job."
- That seems a good plan, if you can swing it. | | | |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 17:40 - May 30 with 1997 views | stevec |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 17:09 - May 30 by E17hoop |
"technically she is in "consultation" until 31 May"
That's why they don't want her going to the LEA - she isn't redundant, it is still being consulted upon, and her job may be safe after consultation.
Thanks Hook *slaps forehead* Continuous would mean LA employment if it contributed to the same pension scheme. |
Not a legal eagle I'm afraid, but an employer. Worst scenario can your wife ask that, under the circumstances, her redundancy should be carried over to her 'next employer'. At least that way she won't lose the years she has accumulated.
Seems your best hope is with the HT, someone with some common decency rather than a jobsworth. Good luck. |  | | |
| Legal Eagle Help Anyone (Non QPR Non Football) on 20:13 - May 30 with 1919 views | winkerhayes |
[Post edited 1 Jan 1970 1:00]
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