| Millwall fans. 17:35 - Dec 5 with 69324 views | Paddyhoops |
They booed the players loudly as they took the knee.
What a classy bunch they are.
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 10:49 - Dec 9 with 2584 views | SheffieldHoop |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 10:24 - Dec 9 by daveB |
The idea for shutting the stadium would be to offer a consequence for actions and make people think. yes you'd get a refund if it happened at QPR and then next time we are all in maybe people would think twice before saying certain things. Fans would also do a lot more self policing. Football clubs need revenue but if thats more important than equality then scrap the whole thing and don't bother. Lets face it English clubs getting kicked out of Europe for several years did have a massive affect on stopping violence in stadiums despite it being grossly unfair to several clubs who could have been playing at the top level during that time (Us and Norwich spring to mind).
I get that some idiot could go in to grab attention but some idiot could go in now and let a firework off from his arse and get hits on youtube, doesn't happen too often though
As for younger people getting involved I don't have specific names as I don't know what Ashley Cole wants to do with his life or if he can offer help same with Fifa Youtubers but getting people into an organisation of different ages and races gives different perspectives and can help you get better [Post edited 9 Dec 2020 10:26]
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So which example incidents do you deem closing the stadium would be the appropriate next step? As I say - I agree with you with some examples that come to mind, but not all. [Post edited 9 Dec 2020 10:50]
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| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 11:16 - Dec 9 with 2525 views | daveB |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 10:49 - Dec 9 by SheffieldHoop |
So which example incidents do you deem closing the stadium would be the appropriate next step? As I say - I agree with you with some examples that come to mind, but not all. [Post edited 9 Dec 2020 10:50]
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The Banana being thrown at the Arsenal player by Spurs fans would be a start but basically the way I would like to see it done is if a player feels he has been racially abused by a supporter he would report it to the referee. The FA would then be called in to investigate and if they find the supporter guilty they close the stadium for one match. Now of course you could say that a player could make this up to punish a club but I think it would be unlikely for players to do that. I think just the threat of it would be enough to make people think twice about what they say and how they behave. That would be a positive change to try and do some good. |  | | |
| Millwall fans. on 11:41 - Dec 9 with 2467 views | GloryHunter |
| Millwall fans. on 10:26 - Dec 9 by Stanisgod |
But what areas? If an area has a predominantly ethnic population, as some areas now do surely that's just odds. |
Which areas do you know of that have a predominantly ethnic population?
Lewisham, for example, is 60% white British. The minority non-white population have a much higher chance of being stopped by the police. And I'm not talking about hooded youngsters, but any black person driving a car, including my building colleagues and most of my football teammates. |  | | |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 11:43 - Dec 9 with 2456 views | SheffieldHoop |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 11:16 - Dec 9 by daveB |
The Banana being thrown at the Arsenal player by Spurs fans would be a start but basically the way I would like to see it done is if a player feels he has been racially abused by a supporter he would report it to the referee. The FA would then be called in to investigate and if they find the supporter guilty they close the stadium for one match. Now of course you could say that a player could make this up to punish a club but I think it would be unlikely for players to do that. I think just the threat of it would be enough to make people think twice about what they say and how they behave. That would be a positive change to try and do some good. |
. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 11:57]
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| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 11:48 - Dec 9 with 2451 views | daveB |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 11:43 - Dec 9 by SheffieldHoop |
. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 11:57]
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Tottenham would be punished as it was their fans, hard luck if it was home or away.
Will always be harsh on the majority who have done nothing wrong but there has to be a consequence for peoples actions | | | |
| Millwall fans. on 11:54 - Dec 9 with 2438 views | ChrisNW6 |
I have lived around the Kilburn/Cricklewood area for 50yrs and never been stopped and searched or pulled over by the Police. Totally different experience for my black mates who face unconscious bias on a daily basis. Every generation is getting better at understanding this issue but we have a long way to go and we must continue educate people. | | | |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 12:05 - Dec 9 with 2411 views | SheffieldHoop |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 11:48 - Dec 9 by daveB |
Tottenham would be punished as it was their fans, hard luck if it was home or away.
Will always be harsh on the majority who have done nothing wrong but there has to be a consequence for peoples actions |
So, despite all of the work that football clubs do to combat racism, despite all the positive anti-racism that comes out of kids of all races making players of all races their heroes, despite the fact that it was 1 person out of 60,000.... We should just shut it down and not let anyone enjoy it.
Hauling the racists through the courts, plastering their name all over the press, giving out a 4 year ban (Admittedly this could be longer but I think this is the standard for non-custodial football offences?) and a £500 fine just is not enough to make people think twice
But threatening to close stadiums would be.....
Nah I just can't get on board with this idea mate [Post edited 9 Dec 2020 12:10]
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| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 12:12 - Dec 9 with 2390 views | daveB |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 12:05 - Dec 9 by SheffieldHoop |
So, despite all of the work that football clubs do to combat racism, despite all the positive anti-racism that comes out of kids of all races making players of all races their heroes, despite the fact that it was 1 person out of 60,000.... We should just shut it down and not let anyone enjoy it.
Hauling the racists through the courts, plastering their name all over the press, giving out a 4 year ban (Admittedly this could be longer but I think this is the standard for non-custodial football offences?) and a £500 fine just is not enough to make people think twice
But threatening to close stadiums would be.....
Nah I just can't get on board with this idea mate [Post edited 9 Dec 2020 12:10]
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All that other stuff is great but if after all that you are still getting fans racially abusing players or officials then it clearly hasn't worked so go the extra mile.
Put that threat in and you have a consequence for people to lose something that want, that sort of thing tends to speed change along a bit. Football though has always liked the token gesture more than actually doing something, stick a t shirt on, hold up a banner and hope it goes away.
I don't think for a second any of this will happen but was asked what change I would want to see come in. | | | |
| Millwall fans. on 12:12 - Dec 9 with 2387 views | GloryHunter |
| Millwall fans. on 11:54 - Dec 9 by ChrisNW6 |
I have lived around the Kilburn/Cricklewood area for 50yrs and never been stopped and searched or pulled over by the Police. Totally different experience for my black mates who face unconscious bias on a daily basis. Every generation is getting better at understanding this issue but we have a long way to go and we must continue educate people. |
Same here. I've lived in London all my life, and been pulled over driving only once - and that was a one-in-ten vehicle routine MoT check. But black guys in my football team have been stopped 30, 40, 50 times plus - and they are mostly teachers and social workers. | | | |
| Millwall fans. on 12:33 - Dec 9 with 2346 views | SheffieldHoop |
| Millwall fans. on 12:12 - Dec 9 by GloryHunter |
Same here. I've lived in London all my life, and been pulled over driving only once - and that was a one-in-ten vehicle routine MoT check. But black guys in my football team have been stopped 30, 40, 50 times plus - and they are mostly teachers and social workers. |
Given that my teen years co-incided with the highest levels, I have been stopped and searched quite a few times. I'd even agree that this was influenced by the lads I was hanging around with. That's life.
Stop and search doesn't happen anywhere near as much these days. This might have something to do with how many people are walking around the streets armed with knives these days. Stop and search has become a dead horse imo. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 12:38 - Dec 9 with 2329 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 12:12 - Dec 9 by daveB |
All that other stuff is great but if after all that you are still getting fans racially abusing players or officials then it clearly hasn't worked so go the extra mile.
Put that threat in and you have a consequence for people to lose something that want, that sort of thing tends to speed change along a bit. Football though has always liked the token gesture more than actually doing something, stick a t shirt on, hold up a banner and hope it goes away.
I don't think for a second any of this will happen but was asked what change I would want to see come in. |
Couldn’t agree more with you, Dave.
I would, however, have a sliding scale of punishments for first, second, third and repeat offences.
Punishments would include heavy fines, then points deductions, then stadium closures and, if all that fails, relegation and expulsion.
This would also apply to crowd violence. |  |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 12:44 - Dec 9 with 2299 views | SheffieldHoop |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 12:12 - Dec 9 by daveB |
All that other stuff is great but if after all that you are still getting fans racially abusing players or officials then it clearly hasn't worked so go the extra mile.
Put that threat in and you have a consequence for people to lose something that want, that sort of thing tends to speed change along a bit. Football though has always liked the token gesture more than actually doing something, stick a t shirt on, hold up a banner and hope it goes away.
I don't think for a second any of this will happen but was asked what change I would want to see come in. |
I would be completely with you if racism was the norm. If it was routine to go to matches and hear racist abuse I'd be with you 110%
But that just isn't the reality in most football grounds around the country. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 12:52 - Dec 9 with 2281 views | daveB |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 12:44 - Dec 9 by SheffieldHoop |
I would be completely with you if racism was the norm. If it was routine to go to matches and hear racist abuse I'd be with you 110%
But that just isn't the reality in most football grounds around the country. |
I'd agree it thankfully doesn't happen in every ground, I'm not suggesting it does but on the rare occasions it does happen the punishment should be strong | | | |
| Millwall fans. on 12:55 - Dec 9 with 2273 views | Juzzie |
| Millwall fans. on 08:30 - Dec 9 by Ned_Kennedys |
If you mean the minority of racist Millwall fans then I’m sure they wouldn’t have wanted their players to link arms with our players behind an anti racism banner? |
I don't think their fans gave two hoots what QPR did, they just didn't want their players taking the knee because of their misunderstanding of what it means.
Whether their players held up a banner, linked arms with the opposition or did a jig around a maypole in the center circle mattered not. Millwall players didn't take the knee, job done. |  | | |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 15:14 - Dec 9 with 2097 views | SheffieldHoop |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 12:52 - Dec 9 by daveB |
I'd agree it thankfully doesn't happen in every ground, I'm not suggesting it does but on the rare occasions it does happen the punishment should be strong |
. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 11:59]
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| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 15:46 - Dec 9 with 2072 views | daveB |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 15:14 - Dec 9 by SheffieldHoop |
. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 11:59]
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As I say mate football either wants to take it seriously or it doesn't. The punishment for individuals if caught can be strong but hard to catch one person and hasn't stopped it happening. Football as a sport can do more but are happy to hold up banners etc and think that's enough.
There will always be reasons not to do something and will be harsh on the majority but if you put that kind of threat in place you'd see a lot more self policing from supporters and people would have to think before they speak which is not a bad thing | | | |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 15:48 - Dec 9 with 2067 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 15:46 - Dec 9 by daveB |
As I say mate football either wants to take it seriously or it doesn't. The punishment for individuals if caught can be strong but hard to catch one person and hasn't stopped it happening. Football as a sport can do more but are happy to hold up banners etc and think that's enough.
There will always be reasons not to do something and will be harsh on the majority but if you put that kind of threat in place you'd see a lot more self policing from supporters and people would have to think before they speak which is not a bad thing |
Ya, I agree with that Dave.
Besides, if it's never needed then what harm would it do to have legislation in place. | |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 17:47 - Dec 9 with 1978 views | distortR |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 15:14 - Dec 9 by SheffieldHoop |
. [Post edited 11 Feb 2021 11:59]
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i am certainly not an advocate of collective punishment | | | |
| Millwall fans. on 19:37 - Dec 9 with 1903 views | kensalriser |
"As far as I know, the mantality for black footballers is often to get in, make as much money as possible, buy your mum whatever she wants, then go and enjoy your life doing whatever you want to do. A lot of the time that doesn't include 7am starts at a training ground and spending weekends away from family. "
This applies a blanket behavioral characteristic to an entire group of people based on literally nothing but skin colour.
I'm actually not even sure where to start with that. |  |
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| Millwall fans. on 21:21 - Dec 9 with 1838 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Millwall fans. on 19:37 - Dec 9 by kensalriser |
"As far as I know, the mantality for black footballers is often to get in, make as much money as possible, buy your mum whatever she wants, then go and enjoy your life doing whatever you want to do. A lot of the time that doesn't include 7am starts at a training ground and spending weekends away from family. "
This applies a blanket behavioral characteristic to an entire group of people based on literally nothing but skin colour.
I'm actually not even sure where to start with that. |
I can't think of anything to say to it either. | |
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| Millwall fans. on 21:28 - Dec 9 with 1823 views | distortR |
| Millwall fans. on 21:21 - Dec 9 by BrianMcCarthy |
I can't think of anything to say to it either. |
the bloke who wrote that has made some good points but unless he can back that statement up, which i strongly doubt, it should never have been written. | | | |
| Millwall fans. on 22:05 - Dec 9 with 1756 views | SheffieldHoop |
| Millwall fans. on 21:21 - Dec 9 by BrianMcCarthy |
I can't think of anything to say to it either. |
FFS. Was hoping to avoid having to post more personal stuff but anyway here goes. My childhood best friend is/was a pro footballer who played for Hull city, Leyton Orient, Tranmere, Oldham, Newport and a few others. And internationally for Antigua and Barbuda. Anyway I've spent a fair amount of time him while at various clubs, and with other lads who have been involved in professional football, mostly from ethnic miniority backgrounds. Very few have ever expressed much desire to get in to coaching, and often express the very attitude I explained above, and fair play to them IMO.
I'd put my mate in the same kind of category as say, Hogan Ephraim. I can't recall if Hogan mentioned wanting to coach on the recent podcast Clive done with him (Which I thought was excellent) - But the impression I was left with is, these are guys with huge amounts to offer the game but little desire to really do it. For whatever reason.
On a side note, the way certain people dismissed Trevor Phillips' opinions in this thread was fairly shameful I thought. Surprised nobody picked up on that. | |
| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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| Millwall fans. on 11:35 - Dec 10 with 1610 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Nice clarification, Sheffield. It was worded a bit like a sweeping generalisation, but if it's true of the few players that you know, then that's naturally fair enough. | |
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| Millwall fans. on 12:07 - Dec 10 with 1575 views | SheffieldHoop |
| Millwall fans. on 11:35 - Dec 10 by BrianMcCarthy |
Nice clarification, Sheffield. It was worded a bit like a sweeping generalisation, but if it's true of the few players that you know, then that's naturally fair enough. |
Sure, I can understand that. This lack of nuance is what makes these internet debates so despotic....Also, that reply was not supposed to be directed specifically at you Brian, apologies.
Hopefully my comments on this thread exemplify why I feel those making blanket statements along the lines of "Anyone who's against this must by default think black lives don't matter" - Along with people who simply refuse to acknowledge the problematic elements of BLM that many others do - are arguably the most divisie people in this whole argument.
EDIT - The argument regarding Millwall/Football clubs taking the knee. Obviously not the argument regarding police brutality in America (For those intent on misunderstanding me) [Post edited 10 Dec 2020 12:15]
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| "Someone despises me. That's their problem." Marcus Aurelius |
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