| Have we finally had enough 08:20 - Jan 10 with 5525 views | SullutaCreturned |
What we have seen with the Post Office scandal, the mass outpouring of support for those poor people, is this the start of us using our voices and making the powers that be pay attention, or is it just a flash in the pan?
Will the great British public stand together going forward, will social media drive people on to demand what is fair and right and will a unfied voice see changes happen? Or will we all just climb back into our boxes? |  | | |  |
| Have we finally had enough on 21:10 - Jan 10 with 1423 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Have we finally had enough on 20:07 - Jan 10 by Gwyn737 |
So true.
We can argue about press bias but we should look towards the US as a cautionary tale. I doubt they’d ever produce such a programme, polarised as they are.
ITV programming, Panorama on the BBC and Channel 4s Despatches have done superb jobs over the years.
OHL mentioned Kathy Comes Home which had a huge impact. More recently, the partygate drama really put the rockets under the justice system.
This kind of journalism are jewels of what we produce. Hopefully it’ll continue. |
The US will jail Trump.
The UK will not jail Johnson, nor that Andrew Windsor.
I agree with you on the TV docs. Quality.
Now they need to do similar with Grenfell. |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Have we finally had enough on 21:13 - Jan 10 with 1394 views | onehunglow |
| Have we finally had enough on 21:10 - Jan 10 by Kilkennyjack |
The US will jail Trump.
The UK will not jail Johnson, nor that Andrew Windsor.
I agree with you on the TV docs. Quality.
Now they need to do similar with Grenfell. |
Well said you | |
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| Have we finally had enough on 21:17 - Jan 10 with 1403 views | Gwyn737 |
| Have we finally had enough on 21:08 - Jan 10 by majorraglan |
I noticed that the Conservative supporting Daily Telegraph highlighted Starmer’s position as the Head of the CPS in an attempt to shift some of the responsibility on him, what they didn’t say is that the Post Office were prosecuting the overwhelming majority of these cases themselves which meant the CPS were not involved.
The CPS have today confirmed that it prosecuted 11 post masters where evidence was provided by Horizon, 3 were subsequently found guilty. Starmer has said no Post Office cases ended up on his desk, and to be honest I’d have been surprised if they had.
Alan Bates reported his concerns to Computer Weekly in 2004, however it was only in 2009 that they had sufficient evidence to publish the article. Labour left power in 2010 , since then we’ve had 13 years of Conservative government who’ve not done a great deal about it until this week and then I suspect it’s only in response to the public anger.
It’s worth adding in amongst all these miss carriages of justice there would have been some cases where Post Masters had been dishonest [Post edited 10 Jan 21:11]
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Coverage in The Sun has been even poorer (not a surprise, obviously)
Ignoring the ‘cab rank’ system for barristers, they’ve pulled out cases they say he shouldn’t have defended.
That's not how the justice system works. | | | |
| Have we finally had enough on 21:28 - Jan 10 with 1394 views | majorraglan |
| Have we finally had enough on 17:13 - Jan 10 by felixstowe_jack |
Correct but the CPS still has oversight and control of private prosecutions. They can take over private prosecutions if they wish. Surely someone in either the CPS or justice system must have noticed the huge increase in Post Office Prosecutions. They do have to allocate court time and judges to try these cases.
The enquiry needs to find out how much the CPS knew and when.
The same cannot be said in Scotland as the procurator fiscal prosecuted all the cases as the Post Office did not have the right too under Scottish law. |
There is no requirement for a private prosecuting authority to notify the CPS that they are progressing a private prosecution, so if the CPS aren’t told about a prosecution they aren’t going to know about it! The CPS do not have oversight and control of private prosecutions, they can take over private prosecutions if they are asked or feel it necssary when they’ve been made aware of it - but I’d have thought the Post Office wouldn’t have been making such requests especially when their investigation teams were on bonuses.
The CPs do not allocate Court time or set listings, that is a matter for the Ministry of Justice. [Post edited 11 Jan 0:05]
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| Have we finally had enough on 23:05 - Jan 10 with 1342 views | JumpingJackFlash |
Considering that this has been known for many years, why is Fujitsu still running the Post Office IT system?
Why has Fujitsu been awarded £3.9 billion in government contracts since 2019? | | | |
| Have we finally had enough on 04:23 - Jan 11 with 1285 views | fbreath |
| Have we finally had enough on 23:05 - Jan 10 by JumpingJackFlash |
Considering that this has been known for many years, why is Fujitsu still running the Post Office IT system?
Why has Fujitsu been awarded £3.9 billion in government contracts since 2019? |
The biggest issue of swapping suppliers is the headache of moving everything across. Writing and implementing a system as complex as these doesn’t happen overnight. Takes a consultant months of meetings gathering information on current set up. Developers have a lot of companies over a barrel as they know customer moving to a new platform would cost a lot more than upgrading with existing supplier as they have all the information they need at their fingertips.
The other thing I found astonishing about this case is that they tried to claim Fujitsu couldn’t access systems remotely. There is no way a company of this size with these amount of end points would send an engineer to post offices all over the uk to run updates etc. |  |
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| Have we finally had enough on 10:15 - Jan 11 with 1239 views | majorraglan |
| Have we finally had enough on 23:05 - Jan 10 by JumpingJackFlash |
Considering that this has been known for many years, why is Fujitsu still running the Post Office IT system?
Why has Fujitsu been awarded £3.9 billion in government contracts since 2019? |
In terms of the last point, maybe it’s because the government didn’t really care and their actions etc now are only being taken to appease the general population. It stinks. | | | |
| Have we finally had enough on 11:05 - Jan 11 with 1217 views | JumpingJackFlash |
| Have we finally had enough on 10:15 - Jan 11 by majorraglan |
In terms of the last point, maybe it’s because the government didn’t really care and their actions etc now are only being taken to appease the general population. It stinks. |
Indeed.
I read today that Horizon is still unreliable and is showing false shortfalls after a quarter of a century in operation. Why hasn’t the government taken Fujitsu to the cleaners over this shambles? | | | |
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| Have we finally had enough on 12:24 - Jan 11 with 1200 views | controversial_jack |
| Have we finally had enough on 11:05 - Jan 11 by JumpingJackFlash |
Indeed.
I read today that Horizon is still unreliable and is showing false shortfalls after a quarter of a century in operation. Why hasn’t the government taken Fujitsu to the cleaners over this shambles? |
It's not the horizon system to blame, it's the misuse of it and the persecutions that followed | | | |
| Have we finally had enough on 16:00 - Jan 11 with 1152 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Have we finally had enough on 12:24 - Jan 11 by controversial_jack |
It's not the horizon system to blame, it's the misuse of it and the persecutions that followed |
That made me laugh. You're up to your old tricks then.
Horizon was and is NOT fit for purpose. It never worked properly and as such it is very much the cause of the problems the subs faced.
The persecutions came about because Post Office senior managers chose to lie to and cheat the subs to protect themselves.
They knew Horizon wsn't working properly, it was never about misuse, the computer system was glitching. | | | |
| Have we finally had enough on 16:29 - Jan 11 with 1135 views | controversial_jack |
| Have we finally had enough on 16:00 - Jan 11 by SullutaCreturned |
That made me laugh. You're up to your old tricks then.
Horizon was and is NOT fit for purpose. It never worked properly and as such it is very much the cause of the problems the subs faced.
The persecutions came about because Post Office senior managers chose to lie to and cheat the subs to protect themselves.
They knew Horizon wsn't working properly, it was never about misuse, the computer system was glitching. |
The problem was with the PO officials who lied.It was they who pushed for the prosecutions not fujitsu | | | |
| Have we finally had enough on 17:37 - Jan 11 with 1114 views | SullutaCreturned |
| Have we finally had enough on 16:29 - Jan 11 by controversial_jack |
The problem was with the PO officials who lied.It was they who pushed for the prosecutions not fujitsu |
I never mentioned Fujitsu. Though the Horizon system was supplied by them so they have to carry some of the blame as they knew of the problems.
Otherwise I said what you said, do keep up.
There was NO misuse by the subs. | | | |
| Have we finally had enough on 18:17 - Jan 11 with 1090 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Have we finally had enough on 16:29 - Jan 11 by controversial_jack |
The problem was with the PO officials who lied.It was they who pushed for the prosecutions not fujitsu |
Why on earth would Fujitsu wish to prosecute. They knew their software was faulty but kept quiet. Their experts said there was no problems, which at least is lie, could be considered a fraud obtaining money from the Post Office when they knew their product was faulty. Could even be considered perverting the course of Justice by not revealing the facts.
Could be liable for huge damages, just like the motor industry for falsifying their Diesel emissions tests. | |
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| Have we finally had enough on 18:27 - Jan 11 with 1088 views | Treforys_Jack |
| Have we finally had enough on 12:24 - Jan 11 by controversial_jack |
It's not the horizon system to blame, it's the misuse of it and the persecutions that followed |
It was 100% the Horizon system not working, nothing to do with misuse. |  | | |
| Have we finally had enough on 20:38 - Jan 11 with 1039 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Have we finally had enough on 18:17 - Jan 11 by felixstowe_jack |
Why on earth would Fujitsu wish to prosecute. They knew their software was faulty but kept quiet. Their experts said there was no problems, which at least is lie, could be considered a fraud obtaining money from the Post Office when they knew their product was faulty. Could even be considered perverting the course of Justice by not revealing the facts.
Could be liable for huge damages, just like the motor industry for falsifying their Diesel emissions tests. |
Shirley the post office themselves will have signed off these systems as working before they go live.
Fujitsu cannot just do it to the post office.
Its clear the system should never have gone Live.
Things could not have been tested correctly.
Delays cost money, but thats better than going ahead with errors.
Its very likely some senior people would have known this. | |
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| Have we finally had enough on 22:12 - Jan 11 with 1018 views | controversial_jack |
| Have we finally had enough on 18:17 - Jan 11 by felixstowe_jack |
Why on earth would Fujitsu wish to prosecute. They knew their software was faulty but kept quiet. Their experts said there was no problems, which at least is lie, could be considered a fraud obtaining money from the Post Office when they knew their product was faulty. Could even be considered perverting the course of Justice by not revealing the facts.
Could be liable for huge damages, just like the motor industry for falsifying their Diesel emissions tests. |
I never said Fujitsu should prosecute. The PO knew the system was faulty, but still made it operational. the buck stops with them. The PO would have accepted hand over of the system from fujitsu. their Engineers should have tested it out before it goes live. That's how new systems worked when i was in the oil and chemical industry [Post edited 11 Jan 22:12]
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| Have we finally had enough on 22:25 - Jan 11 with 1007 views | Whiterockin |
| Have we finally had enough on 22:12 - Jan 11 by controversial_jack |
I never said Fujitsu should prosecute. The PO knew the system was faulty, but still made it operational. the buck stops with them. The PO would have accepted hand over of the system from fujitsu. their Engineers should have tested it out before it goes live. That's how new systems worked when i was in the oil and chemical industry [Post edited 11 Jan 22:12]
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Did the PO know the system was faulty before it was made operational or is that just your opinion. My thoughts are the faults were not realised until after the system was live. After that it was just a case of people covering their backsides and pretty much failing. |  | | |
| Have we finally had enough on 00:47 - Jan 12 with 964 views | majorraglan |
| Have we finally had enough on 16:29 - Jan 11 by controversial_jack |
The problem was with the PO officials who lied.It was they who pushed for the prosecutions not fujitsu |
I believe there is an ongoing investigation in to the conduct of 2 Fujitsu employees who gave evidence at one of the cases. In January 2020 the judge hearing the case wrote to the then DPP stating that the trial found evidence that Fujitsu knew about the existence of bugs, errors and defects in Horizon software.
The errors spanned some 19 years and there were almost 30 known glitches. It’s alleged that Gareth Jenkins and Anne Chambers, both Fujitsu employees and expert witnesses for the prosecutions knew about bugs and did not disclose them when their evidence was used in several cases.
I believe the referral to the DPP resulted in the Met starting Operation Olympus which may still be a live enquiry.
Given all this, it’s beggars belief the government haven’t acted sooner. | | | |
| Have we finally had enough on 09:16 - Jan 12 with 912 views | controversial_jack |
| Have we finally had enough on 22:25 - Jan 11 by Whiterockin |
Did the PO know the system was faulty before it was made operational or is that just your opinion. My thoughts are the faults were not realised until after the system was live. After that it was just a case of people covering their backsides and pretty much failing. |
I believe so, and rather than admit they wasted money on the system, they tried to shift the blame onto the post masters. That's how things work with big corps. it's never the system always the fault of the workers | | | |
| Have we finally had enough on 09:44 - Jan 12 with 895 views | johnlangy |
A number of you have questioned why it went live in 1999 when it hadn't been tested properly.
It was said by someone in the last week that the system, or a version of it, was tested at a number of PO sites prior to 1999 before going live. Some people had problems with it even then. I can't remember if the person said they were prosecuted or if maybe they were told just to pay money back.
But this happened while it was being tested. And even then no one thought that it may be a glitch and not the people using it. | | | |
| Have we finally had enough on 19:00 - Jan 16 with 788 views | johnlangy |
A number of times over the last few years I’ve said to my wife that there’s going to be a revolution in this country, not one with guns and bullets but with normal people all coming together to say enough is enough.
In the ITV drama about the PO scandal Alan Bates talked about the sub postmasters affected as ‘skint little people’. Well, the fact is that in this country almost every single one of us are ‘skint little people’. There are about 64 million of us and maybe 2 million of ‘them’.
And I think it’s fairly safe to assume that everyone who posts on this site are one of the ‘skint, little people’. It doesn’t matter what your political persuasion is, you are one of us.
And this PO scandal may be the catalyst for this ‘revolution’. There have been so many other scandals over fairly recent times. The HIV blood scandal, Grenfell, Hillsborough and so on. And what do they all have in common ? They all affected thousands upon thousands of normal people whose problems were ignored.
When I say ignored what I mean is firstly, if they possibly can, they’ll blame us ‘skint little people’. Then, after years and years when it’s proven that they are wrong they kick the problem down the road as much as they possibly can. Then, when actually forced into addressing the problem they pretend to do something by holding an inquiry which again is just kicking the problem down the road again for years. And they’ll keep doing it because it’s in their interest to do it. And they just don’t care.
If any problem similar to the above happened to any of the 1% the problem would be addressed immediately because that person would be able to buy justice. Most normal people can’t afford to do that. Access to justice when wronged is a cornerstone of a civilised society. In this country you’re very lucky if you get it.
A bloke phoned one of the talk TV stations a few days ago to relate what happened to him. He had been self employed but decided to go back to a normal job where he was registered as an employee and paid his tax through paye. But the HMRC computer system didn’t recognise him. He was treated as if he was still self employed. This went on for eight years. Each year they kept on fining him £3000 until eventually he had to declare bankruptcy.
Back to the PO situation. Whiterockin said this elsewhere in this thread - ‘My thoughts are the faults were not realised until after the system was live. It was stated some time over the last few weeks that the system WAS tested in a number of PO’s before going live. And they had problems even during this testing period. And their reaction was to blame the Sub postmasters even then. Seriously.
There are probably thousands of these problems occurring around the country where ‘computer says yes or no’ so that’s it, you’re guilty.
A bit of a ramble sorry. It just makes my blood boil. | | | |
| Have we finally had enough on 22:21 - Jan 16 with 742 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Have we finally had enough on 19:00 - Jan 16 by johnlangy |
A number of times over the last few years I’ve said to my wife that there’s going to be a revolution in this country, not one with guns and bullets but with normal people all coming together to say enough is enough.
In the ITV drama about the PO scandal Alan Bates talked about the sub postmasters affected as ‘skint little people’. Well, the fact is that in this country almost every single one of us are ‘skint little people’. There are about 64 million of us and maybe 2 million of ‘them’.
And I think it’s fairly safe to assume that everyone who posts on this site are one of the ‘skint, little people’. It doesn’t matter what your political persuasion is, you are one of us.
And this PO scandal may be the catalyst for this ‘revolution’. There have been so many other scandals over fairly recent times. The HIV blood scandal, Grenfell, Hillsborough and so on. And what do they all have in common ? They all affected thousands upon thousands of normal people whose problems were ignored.
When I say ignored what I mean is firstly, if they possibly can, they’ll blame us ‘skint little people’. Then, after years and years when it’s proven that they are wrong they kick the problem down the road as much as they possibly can. Then, when actually forced into addressing the problem they pretend to do something by holding an inquiry which again is just kicking the problem down the road again for years. And they’ll keep doing it because it’s in their interest to do it. And they just don’t care.
If any problem similar to the above happened to any of the 1% the problem would be addressed immediately because that person would be able to buy justice. Most normal people can’t afford to do that. Access to justice when wronged is a cornerstone of a civilised society. In this country you’re very lucky if you get it.
A bloke phoned one of the talk TV stations a few days ago to relate what happened to him. He had been self employed but decided to go back to a normal job where he was registered as an employee and paid his tax through paye. But the HMRC computer system didn’t recognise him. He was treated as if he was still self employed. This went on for eight years. Each year they kept on fining him £3000 until eventually he had to declare bankruptcy.
Back to the PO situation. Whiterockin said this elsewhere in this thread - ‘My thoughts are the faults were not realised until after the system was live. It was stated some time over the last few weeks that the system WAS tested in a number of PO’s before going live. And they had problems even during this testing period. And their reaction was to blame the Sub postmasters even then. Seriously.
There are probably thousands of these problems occurring around the country where ‘computer says yes or no’ so that’s it, you’re guilty.
A bit of a ramble sorry. It just makes my blood boil. |
I’d love you to be right John.
Thatcher made general society far more greedy and far more selfish than it ever was.
People would to need to organise and build a movement strong.
I am not sure that many people would be motivated to help others.
Pre-Thatcher people would have done it without question. People cared about others in the post war years. | |
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| Have we finally had enough on 09:12 - Jan 17 with 705 views | felixstowe_jack |
| Have we finally had enough on 22:21 - Jan 16 by Kilkennyjack |
I’d love you to be right John.
Thatcher made general society far more greedy and far more selfish than it ever was.
People would to need to organise and build a movement strong.
I am not sure that many people would be motivated to help others.
Pre-Thatcher people would have done it without question. People cared about others in the post war years. |
Not sure Thatcher was in power when Post Office scandel started. It was Blair.
Do try to stay on topic. | |
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| Have we finally had enough on 09:49 - Jan 17 with 698 views | johnlangy |
| Have we finally had enough on 22:21 - Jan 16 by Kilkennyjack |
I’d love you to be right John.
Thatcher made general society far more greedy and far more selfish than it ever was.
People would to need to organise and build a movement strong.
I am not sure that many people would be motivated to help others.
Pre-Thatcher people would have done it without question. People cared about others in the post war years. |
What we need is a union where everyone gets behind any wronged member of that union, going out on strike if necessary. We could call it USLP. That is Union of Skint Little People. And it could have 64 million members.
What do you think ?  | | | |
| Have we finally had enough on 21:40 - Jan 17 with 647 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Have we finally had enough on 09:49 - Jan 17 by johnlangy |
What we need is a union where everyone gets behind any wronged member of that union, going out on strike if necessary. We could call it USLP. That is Union of Skint Little People. And it could have 64 million members.
What do you think ? |
Yes, please sign me up.
Power to the people. | |
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