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Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 16:57 - Oct 4 by Juzzie
Trump says he’ll ignore/disregard the result if it goes against him?
So what would actually happen then, he gets dragged out while having a hissy fit of massive proportions?
Surely he can’t say no, that would be a coup would it not and where would that leave the US on a national and international scale. It’s ideal of being the ultimate democracy would be in tatters.
I can’t see it ending well if Trump loses.There are too many idiots with guns,who only see their side of the argument for it to end peacefully.
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Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 18:08 - Oct 4 with 1730 views
Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 17:59 - Oct 4 by stowmarketrange
It might be if we could read it.
“On Sunday, in an interview with Chris Wallace of Fox News, Donald Trump refused to commit to recognizing the outcome of the 2020 election. “I’m not going to just say yes,” the President said. “And I didn’t last time, either.” (Back in October, 2016, Trump was proclaiming that the election he went on to win was “rigged” against him.) He wasn’t telling us anything new, and yet we still have not learned to think of ourselves as a country where the President can lose an election and refuse to leave office.
Lawrence Douglas, a legal scholar and a professor at Amherst College, gave himself the task of methodically thinking through the unthinkable. The result is a slim book, “Will He Go? Trump and the Looming Election Meltdown in 2020.” Douglas begins by taking the President at his word. “While his defeat is far from certain,” he writes, “what is not uncertain is how Donald Trump would react to electoral defeat, especially a narrow one. He will reject the result.”
Douglas argues that Trump’s evident intent to hold on to his office, regardless of the will of the voters, is not the best measure of the damage he has wrought or the power he has accumulated. He writes, “A more powerful authoritarian would never let himself get into this situation in the first place; he would have already so corrupted the process that his chance of losing would have been effectively eliminated.” By the standards of entrenched autocracies, Trump’s grip on power is as weak as his grip on reality. Still, the system of government that he has hijacked is not designed to protect itself against his kind of attack. “Our Constitution does not secure the peaceful transition of power, but rather presupposes it,” Douglas writes. Worse, the peculiar institution of the Electoral College, which separates the outcome of the election from the popular vote, practically invites abuse.
When electoral crises have arisen, past political leaders have stepped up, or stepped aside, to insure the peaceful transfer of power. Al Gore, to take a painful example, did not have to accept the Supreme Court’s order stopping a recount in Florida, in December, 2000, as the last word on that year’s election; Douglas details constitutional avenues Gore could have pursued to claim victory. Though he had won the popular vote, Gore saw it as his duty to avoid escalating the electoral crisis. The Presidential elections of 1800 and 1876 ended in compromises, too, in the spirit of the Constitution, common cause, and good faith–all things alien to Donald Trump. It’s not the compromise that functions as precedent here but the conflict: election results have been unclear in the past, and they can be unclear again.
Douglas conjures three detailed scenarios, which he calls Catastrophe No. 1, Catastrophe No. 2, and Catastrophe No. 3. In the first story, Trump gets five million fewer votes than Joe Biden, but appears to win the Electoral College–that is, until two Republican electors from Pennsylvania decide to break ranks and vote for Mitt Romney. Douglas, who is also the author of two novels, imagines the ensuing chaos in vivid detail, down to Trump’s tweets (“BULLSHIT rains [sic] in PA!!! TREASONOUS ‘electors’ trying to DEFRAUD the American People”) and “Faithful not Faithless” bumper stickers for supporters of the rogue electors.
In Douglas’s second scenario, hackers attack the power grid of Detroit on Election Day. Much of the city is in the dark for much of the day, and votes are not counted. The outcome of the election in Michigan, and the country, hangs in the balance. The Democrats demand a revote, as does the mayor of the city. Trump tweets, “DETROIT doesn’t get a revote because very LOW IQ mayor doesn’t know how to HOLD AN ELECTION!” A revote is held and improbably recognized by the Supreme Court, but not by Donald Trump.
In the third scenario, the drama unfolds slowly–too slowly. On Election Day, Fox News calls the race for Trump, but an unprecedented number of Americans have voted by mail, and as their votes are counted, the balance shifts: Americans have chosen Biden. The process of counting absentee ballots is so cumbersome and labor-intensive, however, that in some states it necessarily misses the filing deadline. As a result, three states each file two conflicting vote reports, certified by separate agencies: one that privileges the deadline and one that reflects the total number of ballots collected. The first count comes out in favor of Trump, the second in favor of Biden.
The mortifying beauty of Douglas’s scenarios is that each is based on historical precedent. Electors have broken ranks before. Russia has used computer hacking to interfere in American elections, and it has brought down digital infrastructure in other countries as a gesture of domination: Ukraine in 2015, Georgia in 2008, and Estonia in 2007. States have organized revotes, which have taken an extraordinarily long time. And states have filed conflicting vote reports–in 1876, three states did so, just as Douglas imagines in his third scenario.
What happens next? We know that Trump will work to exacerbate any crisis, not resolve it; the Constitution assumes good faith, and laws intended to regulate voting outcomes are disastrously vague. In each of Douglas’s three scenarios, Trump would continue to consider himself President, although Biden may consider himself the victor of the race. According to the Constitution, if the Presidential race cannot be called, the Speaker of the House becomes the acting President. Douglas imagines Chief Justice John Roberts swearing in Nancy Pelosi while Justice Clarence Thomas administers the oath of office to Trump–or, alternatively, no one being sworn in and Trump and Biden and/or Pelosi claiming the rights and responsibilities of the Presidency. Because Americans no longer live in a shared reality, different Americans will have different Presidents. All the while, Trump’s tweets incite violent clashes. “And let us not forget,” Douglas writes, “that guns in this country remain in profuse supply and are largely concentrated in the hands of the president’s most fervent, distrustful, and easily unsettled supporters.”
“Can the crisis be contained?” Douglas asks. His answer is not reassuring. Suppose no major catastrophe befalls the election. (By the time the reader reaches the end of Douglas’s book, this supposition will seem naïve.) Suppose Biden wins. “The best we can expect from President Donald Trump after an electoral defeat is self-pitying, peevish submission,” Douglas writes. If he goes–which will require an overwhelming electoral defeat–Trump is not only sure to play the victim, blaming the Deep State and undocumented immigrants for his loss, but also likely to linger and delay his departure. The ragged end of his Presidency, if it comes, will be full of conflict and resentment. There will be no orderly handover, no constructive transition–a disastrous prospect during a pandemic and a deep recession, and yet another blow to our perceptions of how elections and government operate.
This is the best-case scenario. The worst case, as Douglas’s three catastrophes illustrate, is a close or contested result of the vote, which leads to a constitutional implosion and an explosion of violence. “This would represent a greater disaster for America than an outright victory by Trump,” Douglas writes. It’s a jarring conclusion, and an entirely convincing one.”
[Post edited 4 Oct 2020 18:09]
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Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 18:21 - Oct 4 with 1708 views
I assume that you are referring to the riots over the BLM movement. The riots being in democratic cities is hardly surprising is it, given that the issues pertain mostly to equal rights for minorities and the position of the leader of the republican party is to play down the importance of that movement.
Any evidence for the rest of it?
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Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 19:43 - Oct 4 with 1562 views
Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 13:33 - Oct 4 by CincyHoop
I wonder what the success rate is of trying to change people’s political opinions on social media/internet/message boards?
Had to be extremely low, right?
verrrrry low!
I think this board is great most of the time, and I've changed my mind about many views based on stuff I've learned here. but it happens slowly, it;s hardly ever a Eureka moment. that's human nature, I suppose.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
I sat down to respond to your post, but actually, I really can't be ar sed wasting any more time on this with you. I expect you feel the same. Up is down, down is up.
Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts
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Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 20:27 - Oct 4 with 1491 views
I live in a democratic city. No riots concerning BLM here. Very well organized with an enormous emphasis on it being peaceful. My friend has a restaurant business downtown and was boarding up his windows. Passers by were apologizing saying everything will be done to keep this peaceful. The truth is the police got pissed off/bored and tried to stir things up.
Other places theirs arguments on both sides. Trumps henchmen the dept of homeland security stirring shyte up by the cover of their unmarked soccer mom mini vans. Literally driving around picking up people on the street. It’s out of control.
Seriously though you really cant believe how many and how open many, many people are about not wishing him well. It’s Thatcher like.
Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 19:51 - Oct 3 by CLAREMAN1995
You should be banned for that disgusting post .If you hate the man that much vote and let the American people remove him which they will going off the polls. I want him out more than anyone but he is a human being with a family like us all but I hope he faces his judgement from America this November not God this week
We need a reality check here.
We are just random people on the internet. It doesn't matter if we say we want someone dead or not.
Trump has power and has been using that power to try and ignite a civil war since he came into office. At demonstrations we are seeing a coalescence of state forces with freelance gun-toting militias. The enemy has changed of course (and will continue to change). First it was the Mexicans (wasn't Trump going to build a wall?), then it was the muslims. Now, as the election approaches, it's BLM and antifa, while Trump stokes up fear about the suburbs being destroyed.
Trump boosters like Hannity have played down the murders carried out by Kyle Rittenhouse in Kenosha while Trump boasted about the FBI execution of Michael Reinoehl in Portland - the message from the Trumpists to the militias is clear: the state is on your side.
I should add that I don't think that Trump has been that successful in his attempts to start a civil war. The Portland protests got much bigger after the Portland police attempted to baton and teargas people off the streets, and Trump sent in his unmarked private militia (seconded from border control) to pull people off the streets. This led to the Wall of Moms and the Navy veteran who got beaten when trying to talk to Trump's thugs.
Air hostess clique
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Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 20:45 - Oct 4 with 1417 views
Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 20:34 - Oct 4 by TacticalR
We need a reality check here.
We are just random people on the internet. It doesn't matter if we say we want someone dead or not.
Trump has power and has been using that power to try and ignite a civil war since he came into office. At demonstrations we are seeing a coalescence of state forces with freelance gun-toting militias. The enemy has changed of course (and will continue to change). First it was the Mexicans (wasn't Trump going to build a wall?), then it was the muslims. Now, as the election approaches, it's BLM and antifa, while Trump stokes up fear about the suburbs being destroyed.
Trump boosters like Hannity have played down the murders carried out by Kyle Rittenhouse in Kenosha while Trump boasted about the FBI execution of Michael Reinoehl in Portland - the message from the Trumpists to the militias is clear: the state is on your side.
I should add that I don't think that Trump has been that successful in his attempts to start a civil war. The Portland protests got much bigger after the Portland police attempted to baton and teargas people off the streets, and Trump sent in his unmarked private militia (seconded from border control) to pull people off the streets. This led to the Wall of Moms and the Navy veteran who got beaten when trying to talk to Trump's thugs.
The wall was Clintons baby, sections of it have been built long before Trump arrived. The Muslim travel ban was an Obama plan.
Edit. Also Kyle Rittenhouse acted in self defence. There are videos out there that show him being chased down by a mob, being knocked to the floor. The first guy shot in the chest had tried to remove Kyles head with a skateboard, the second had pulled a gun on Kyle.
[Post edited 4 Oct 2020 20:55]
'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.'
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Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 21:00 - Oct 4 with 1373 views
Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 20:45 - Oct 4 by Sharpy36
The wall was Clintons baby, sections of it have been built long before Trump arrived. The Muslim travel ban was an Obama plan.
Edit. Also Kyle Rittenhouse acted in self defence. There are videos out there that show him being chased down by a mob, being knocked to the floor. The first guy shot in the chest had tried to remove Kyles head with a skateboard, the second had pulled a gun on Kyle.
[Post edited 4 Oct 2020 20:55]
That's some fancy footwork Sharpy.
It makes you wonder why everyone used to shout 'Build That Wall!' at Trump rallies. What fun they were. Anyway, that was years ago, and only nitpickers would complain about castles in the air that have not been built. At least Steve Bannon made some money out of the whole thing.
Air hostess clique
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Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 21:08 - Oct 4 with 1353 views
I live in a conservative suburb in a very "blue" county so wind up hanging out with folk from different sides of the fence. In the build up to the 2016 election while Trump was just in the Republican primaries I felt a shift. It wasn't just Trump. I felt Sanders was also energizing a certain demographic and there were increasingly strong and aggressive positions on both sides of the political spectrum.
I remember reading Orwell's "Homage to Catalonia" and thinking it was interesting but very European and seemed obscure and distant. It wasn't a dynamic that would play out in California. It was in 2016 that for the first time I thought "wow, okay, I can see a version of that taking place here."
I'm worried about where this is going.
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Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 21:12 - Oct 4 with 1339 views
Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 21:00 - Oct 4 by TacticalR
That's some fancy footwork Sharpy.
It makes you wonder why everyone used to shout 'Build That Wall!' at Trump rallies. What fun they were. Anyway, that was years ago, and only nitpickers would complain about castles in the air that have not been built. At least Steve Bannon made some money out of the whole thing.
No nitpicking, just like to know when i`m reading others posts that they contain facts, not half truths to try and lead the reader down an already very twisted road.
'You didn't know that was wrong, but now you do. If you do it again, I'll know you are doing it on purpose.'
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Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 21:14 - Oct 4 with 1334 views
Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 19:43 - Oct 4 by BrianMcCarthy
verrrrry low!
I think this board is great most of the time, and I've changed my mind about many views based on stuff I've learned here. but it happens slowly, it;s hardly ever a Eureka moment. that's human nature, I suppose.
Don't be too quick to dismiss the power of social media Brian. Us selfish boomers, sitting on our impossible to untap property wealth, still get our news from the telly box and newspapers but there's a couple of generations who only get their news from unregulated social media.
If you can, try and watch The Comey Rule which showed how a carefully placed laptop with a bucket load of 'potentially' unseen emails from Hilary Clinton (discovered shortly before the election) snookered Comey into an unwinnable position of "Damned if you do, damned if you don't". It's less about the power of misinformation and more about the problem of foreign interference.
The power of fake news hasn't been fully revealed to the general public yet but this is a long but informative peak through the window of the awesome power it can wield.
Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 20:45 - Oct 4 by Sharpy36
The wall was Clintons baby, sections of it have been built long before Trump arrived. The Muslim travel ban was an Obama plan.
Edit. Also Kyle Rittenhouse acted in self defence. There are videos out there that show him being chased down by a mob, being knocked to the floor. The first guy shot in the chest had tried to remove Kyles head with a skateboard, the second had pulled a gun on Kyle.
[Post edited 4 Oct 2020 20:55]
Self Defence? He turned up on the streets of a city in a different state to his own with an assault rifle!
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Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 21:54 - Oct 4 with 1251 views
Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 21:12 - Oct 4 by Sharpy36
No nitpicking, just like to know when i`m reading others posts that they contain facts, not half truths to try and lead the reader down an already very twisted road.
But it’s not a half truth, Sharpy. That is the point.
Parts of a border control policy involving bits of physical wall were implemented pre-Trump. Fine.
Separate point that Tactical was making was that Trump used Mexicans as an enemy to unite a group of voters against, hence the “Build The Wall” chants sung repeatedly at his rallies.
You can’t deny that. He proposed a full wall across the border to protect (typical Republican line) the American citizens from an enemy, in this case the “drug dealers” and “rapists” (Trump’s words). He made a huge deal of it to drum up support.
He’s since changed the enemy for the same purpose. It’s the same tactic. Now it’s BLM and Antifa.
Tactical was making a very valid point coherently. It wasn’t full of mistruths, as you say.
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Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 22:03 - Oct 4 with 1230 views
You can read these NewYorker.com pieces if you open them in a non-private window. As per the article in my OP.
Whatever, the outlook is not good. We've had our constitutional problems here in the UK - and Dominic Cummings seems to have made it his mission to exploit every constitutional loophole he can find. But for all those people who say, "If only we had a written constitution" - just have a look at what might happen in America next month.
As the author says, “Our Constitution does not secure the peaceful transition of power, but rather presupposes it.”
This is very worrying. I fear for my many good friends in America, and ultimately for world peace and stability.
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Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 22:42 - Oct 4 with 1173 views
Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 20:27 - Oct 4 by TacticalR
As has been said before, Trump is a symptom of US decline, as is the fact the Democrats are only able to put up a candidate who is half dead.
The extraordinary thing is the rapidity of US decline.
Do not underestimate the power of the US as a nation to bounce back. They’ve not been around that long and yes they have made mistakes- Trump being one of them. They are still immensely powerful, not just in military terms but they have incredible scientific, technology and R&D institutions. They will come again and much stronger.
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Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 22:57 - Oct 4 with 2017 views
Where does personal and corporate responsibility become involved? So the USA elected trump, so what? Doesn’t really impact my personal life to be frank. So he loosens regulations, acts like a clown or whatever. That doesn’t just give me a blank check to do act or do whatever I want. I can still hold myself to my own moral standards. So can can every company out there. Not sure what trump, Biden, Democrat, republicans, has to do with just generally doing the right thing and holding each other accountable. Can toss around blame and point fingers all we want, throw labels on things, make it political, but none of that should get in front of just doing the right thing.
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Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 03:39 - Oct 5 with 1875 views
Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 02:15 - Oct 5 by CincyHoop
Where does personal and corporate responsibility become involved? So the USA elected trump, so what? Doesn’t really impact my personal life to be frank. So he loosens regulations, acts like a clown or whatever. That doesn’t just give me a blank check to do act or do whatever I want. I can still hold myself to my own moral standards. So can can every company out there. Not sure what trump, Biden, Democrat, republicans, has to do with just generally doing the right thing and holding each other accountable. Can toss around blame and point fingers all we want, throw labels on things, make it political, but none of that should get in front of just doing the right thing.
"Not sure what trump, Biden, Democrat, republicans, has to do with just generally doing the right thing and holding each other accountable."
I one hundred percent agree that "doing the right thing and holding each other accountable" is what we should be doing. My own opinion is that Trump, more than any president in the past of either party, fails to embody that. That in turn sets a precedent for people who look up to him. And it makes it difficult to "hold each other accountable" when the most powerful man in the world is acting a certain way - like it or not that makes people who look up to him think it's acceptable behavior.
To take one example, look at the way he has bragged about treating women, most notably prior to the 2016 election. I just don't think that's acceptable and if it's encouraged even a single person to believe that kind of behavior is acceptable then it's one person too many.
There are other examples but this isn't intended to be a list of bad things Trump has done or alleged to have done, it's a comment on the weight that a president carries and the fact they are and should be held to a higher standard than you or I because of the influence they have on others. Ironically these days that is also true of sports superstars although the difference is that they haven't actively campaigned to be in a position of power and influence.
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Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 05:19 - Oct 5 with 1862 views
I wouldn’t consider Trump’s pandering to the religious right of America while he fails to live up to, well, any religion’s core values, as taking the moral high ground.
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Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 09:42 - Oct 5 with 1718 views
Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 02:15 - Oct 5 by CincyHoop
Where does personal and corporate responsibility become involved? So the USA elected trump, so what? Doesn’t really impact my personal life to be frank. So he loosens regulations, acts like a clown or whatever. That doesn’t just give me a blank check to do act or do whatever I want. I can still hold myself to my own moral standards. So can can every company out there. Not sure what trump, Biden, Democrat, republicans, has to do with just generally doing the right thing and holding each other accountable. Can toss around blame and point fingers all we want, throw labels on things, make it political, but none of that should get in front of just doing the right thing.
"Doesn’t really impact my personal life to be frank"
Could that be because you are white, male, not poor?
Do you not think that personal reponsibility and "doing the right thing" should extend to wanting the best for every citizen in your country, and not just what's best for you?
[Post edited 5 Oct 2020 9:44]
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Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 09:43 - Oct 5 with 1716 views
Donald Trump - the Brit who made him President on 02:15 - Oct 5 by CincyHoop
Where does personal and corporate responsibility become involved? So the USA elected trump, so what? Doesn’t really impact my personal life to be frank. So he loosens regulations, acts like a clown or whatever. That doesn’t just give me a blank check to do act or do whatever I want. I can still hold myself to my own moral standards. So can can every company out there. Not sure what trump, Biden, Democrat, republicans, has to do with just generally doing the right thing and holding each other accountable. Can toss around blame and point fingers all we want, throw labels on things, make it political, but none of that should get in front of just doing the right thing.
I agree that changing regulations doesn't mean that you change your own standards, for example they could sell chlorinated chicken in the UK and I wouldn't touch it but perhaps if it's cheaper not everyone could afford to take such a stance. I'm sure everyone if they had their choice was want the highest standard of whatever but sometimes it comes down to cost.
It seems that to many companies the regulations are "the right thing", the standard they need to meet to be considered as acting legally and therefore of clear conscience, even if that does mean that people in their full time employment need food banks or can't afford healthcare. They have shareholders they are responsible to and competition to worry about, so the minimum is often the default.
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