| World Cup of Shame on 08:45 - Nov 5 with 2362 views | Sakura |
| World Cup of Shame on 08:29 - Nov 5 by connell10 |
It's just pointing it out and holding these country's to some sort account! The thing that grates with me is this whole bid was built on back handers and bungs. People are going to court on the back of corruption charges connected to this and other World Cup bids. So in my opinion this farce of a World Cup should have been called off ! |
What does that mean? Holding them to account? Seems imperialistic and not understanding of their religious beliefs
Anyone going into that territory in this country then yes I agree cannot be tolerated for a millisecond. But not respecting another country and their religious beliefs because we think we are better than them is veering into white supremacy
As for the bribes. Yes, there were bribes. Butto host London 2012 we bribed the hell out of that contest, been caught a couple of times as well
https://amp.theguardian.com/uk/2005/apr/24/olympics2012.olympicgames
Poor effort with the handbag bribes for 2018 World Cup by us though
https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2009/nov/04/england-2018-world-cup-bid-fa
So we are adding hypocrites to the list as well I see [Post edited 5 Nov 2022 8:46]
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| World Cup of Shame on 08:49 - Nov 5 with 2400 views | distortR |
| World Cup of Shame on 08:44 - Nov 5 by davman |
It is a good point on our position to judge what is right and wrong.
Our society appears to have allowed free speech to the point where we can denounce religion and ridicule the doctrine and way of life it promotes, so we are not scared of calling out principles, which just seem wrong and insane.
Other societies do not share that view and take their beliefs and doctrine very, very seriously. And I am slightly uncomfortable with a "better than you" type imposition on such societies.
That said, these are nuts views. You get dickheads who are white, black, Asian, Arabic, Hispanic, etc. - it is not race specific and there are plenty of harmful, coercive heterosexual relationships out there that are clearly Wrong. That is what we should all be calling out irrespective of what a "text book" may or may not be telling us... |
Yet some of the things normalised in our countries will seem wrong to other cultures, including the complete over-sexualisation of our culture. | | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:17 - Nov 5 with 2330 views | nix |
I reserve the right to criticise other countries if I think their human rights' record is poor. It's not racist to do so or imperialistic (seriously, look up what that word actually means!). I can be even handed enough to be equally critical of my own country and do so regularly.
I am tired of cultural relativism. Because women have scarcely any rights in some countries it's okay because it's enshrined in books written by a man several thousands of years ago. No, just no.
Any more than I would have said the US could carry on with its policy of segregation enshrined in the Jim Crow laws.
None of this means that I don't see the issues in my country. None of this means that I think it's better in all ways than certain other countries. But to suggest that we can't be critical of them because we have our own issues is just the usual lazy whataboutery of the politically bankrupt. |  | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:26 - Nov 5 with 2319 views | Paddyhoops |
| World Cup of Shame on 12:49 - Nov 4 by Northernr |
Gary Neville has damaged his brand a great deal with this too for me.
And David Beckham, who appeared on the front of Attitude when that suited his brand and bank balance, now shilling for Qatar as well. |
Beckham doesn’t surprise me in the least . He promotes whisky even though he doesn’t drink.
Neville talks a good game. Everybody’s favourite champagne socialist but he hasn’t really done himself any favours on Quatar.
Nobody has .
As for the lad who leads that horrendous brass band . Stick the trumpet as far up his jacksie as it will go!! | | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:27 - Nov 5 with 2318 views | connell10 |
| World Cup of Shame on 08:45 - Nov 5 by Sakura |
What does that mean? Holding them to account? Seems imperialistic and not understanding of their religious beliefs
Anyone going into that territory in this country then yes I agree cannot be tolerated for a millisecond. But not respecting another country and their religious beliefs because we think we are better than them is veering into white supremacy
As for the bribes. Yes, there were bribes. Butto host London 2012 we bribed the hell out of that contest, been caught a couple of times as well
https://amp.theguardian.com/uk/2005/apr/24/olympics2012.olympicgames
Poor effort with the handbag bribes for 2018 World Cup by us though
https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2009/nov/04/england-2018-world-cup-bid-fa
So we are adding hypocrites to the list as well I see [Post edited 5 Nov 2022 8:46]
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Yeah good job you weren't around in 1939 ....because sometimes me old mucker it's right to get involved! |  |
| AND WHEN I DREAM , I DREAM ABOUT YOU AND WHEN I SCREAM I SCREAM ABOUT YOU!!!!! | | Poll: | best number 10 ever? |
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| World Cup of Shame on 09:28 - Nov 5 with 2315 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Not surprisingly, this is a great conversation.
I'm nowhere near making up my mind on this one. I suspect I'll still be revising my views throughout the tournament. On the one hand, I recognise the ills in Qatar. On the other, I can't help but recognise that no-one boycotted any of the previous World Cups, many of which were held in Countries with then-appalling records on human rights, violence, warmongering, racism and/or sexism.
If I'm going to boycott the World Cup in Qatar, I want to first convince myself that it's because their 'ills' are much worse than those of any previous host, not just because 'they' don't look like 'us'. |  |
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| World Cup of Shame on 09:30 - Nov 5 with 2310 views | connell10 |
| World Cup of Shame on 08:45 - Nov 5 by Sakura |
What does that mean? Holding them to account? Seems imperialistic and not understanding of their religious beliefs
Anyone going into that territory in this country then yes I agree cannot be tolerated for a millisecond. But not respecting another country and their religious beliefs because we think we are better than them is veering into white supremacy
As for the bribes. Yes, there were bribes. Butto host London 2012 we bribed the hell out of that contest, been caught a couple of times as well
https://amp.theguardian.com/uk/2005/apr/24/olympics2012.olympicgames
Poor effort with the handbag bribes for 2018 World Cup by us though
https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2009/nov/04/england-2018-world-cup-bid-fa
So we are adding hypocrites to the list as well I see [Post edited 5 Nov 2022 8:46]
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Mate you full of crap and to be honest I can't be bothered with people like you today ....ignore added. | |
| AND WHEN I DREAM , I DREAM ABOUT YOU AND WHEN I SCREAM I SCREAM ABOUT YOU!!!!! | | Poll: | best number 10 ever? |
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| World Cup of Shame on 09:30 - Nov 5 with 2299 views | lightwaterhoop |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:17 - Nov 5 by nix |
I reserve the right to criticise other countries if I think their human rights' record is poor. It's not racist to do so or imperialistic (seriously, look up what that word actually means!). I can be even handed enough to be equally critical of my own country and do so regularly.
I am tired of cultural relativism. Because women have scarcely any rights in some countries it's okay because it's enshrined in books written by a man several thousands of years ago. No, just no.
Any more than I would have said the US could carry on with its policy of segregation enshrined in the Jim Crow laws.
None of this means that I don't see the issues in my country. None of this means that I think it's better in all ways than certain other countries. But to suggest that we can't be critical of them because we have our own issues is just the usual lazy whataboutery of the politically bankrupt. |
Several thousands of years ago you say.No just no! look up your history before you post things. | | | |
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| World Cup of Shame on 09:33 - Nov 5 with 2257 views | Sakura |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:17 - Nov 5 by nix |
I reserve the right to criticise other countries if I think their human rights' record is poor. It's not racist to do so or imperialistic (seriously, look up what that word actually means!). I can be even handed enough to be equally critical of my own country and do so regularly.
I am tired of cultural relativism. Because women have scarcely any rights in some countries it's okay because it's enshrined in books written by a man several thousands of years ago. No, just no.
Any more than I would have said the US could carry on with its policy of segregation enshrined in the Jim Crow laws.
None of this means that I don't see the issues in my country. None of this means that I think it's better in all ways than certain other countries. But to suggest that we can't be critical of them because we have our own issues is just the usual lazy whataboutery of the politically bankrupt. |
To criticise their human rights record in respect of working conditions is not racist.
But I think that's some mind gymnastics from you there as that's obviously not what I am talking about. It's also amusing as you probably wrote that message on a smart phone that uses cobalt dug by children from mines in the Congo. So you're interestingly selective about your concern for working conditions.
Where it is a racist view is to tell people that they shouldn't speak to or work with someone because they are from a country that has cultural or religious beliefs you don't agree with. It is certainly a form of prejudice
What is your goal here? What are you hoping to achieve?
If it' nothing more than just trying to make yourself feel better with some simple virtue signalling then fine 'imperialistic' isn't appropriate
But that word is defined as;
"a policy of extending a country's power and influence through colonization, use of military force, or other means"
If you are trying to do more than just virtue signal then it is part of a country trying to extend its power and influence, by other means. So it is indeed imperialistic and centred on you believing that you are better than Qatari culture, then their Muslim beliefs and that you have a right to try and impose those beliefs on them but they don't on you [Post edited 5 Nov 2022 9:37]
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| World Cup of Shame on 09:35 - Nov 5 with 2255 views | Sakura |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:27 - Nov 5 by connell10 |
Yeah good job you weren't around in 1939 ....because sometimes me old mucker it's right to get involved! |
Wow , this really is imperialistic.
Are you equating Qatar to Nazi Germany
Does this count as Goodwins law
Blimey | | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:47 - Nov 5 with 2259 views | nix |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:33 - Nov 5 by Sakura |
To criticise their human rights record in respect of working conditions is not racist.
But I think that's some mind gymnastics from you there as that's obviously not what I am talking about. It's also amusing as you probably wrote that message on a smart phone that uses cobalt dug by children from mines in the Congo. So you're interestingly selective about your concern for working conditions.
Where it is a racist view is to tell people that they shouldn't speak to or work with someone because they are from a country that has cultural or religious beliefs you don't agree with. It is certainly a form of prejudice
What is your goal here? What are you hoping to achieve?
If it' nothing more than just trying to make yourself feel better with some simple virtue signalling then fine 'imperialistic' isn't appropriate
But that word is defined as;
"a policy of extending a country's power and influence through colonization, use of military force, or other means"
If you are trying to do more than just virtue signal then it is part of a country trying to extend its power and influence, by other means. So it is indeed imperialistic and centred on you believing that you are better than Qatari culture, then their Muslim beliefs and that you have a right to try and impose those beliefs on them but they don't on you [Post edited 5 Nov 2022 9:37]
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What a load of shit. I didn't say any of those things you've ascribed to me. I didn't say anything about working conditions, let alone that there's no other place in the world or issues that need addressing. In fact I made that very point.
I didn't say that people shouldn't speak or work with people who have opinions they disagree with.
Why are you accusing me of having a goal. I was expressing an opinion. What's your goal?
You really love flinging insults around as some kind of gotcha rhetorical device.. virtue signalling, the latest one. I could equally accuse you of virtue signalling in your defence of cultural mores, making you so even handed and understanding.
I literally said that there are things about my culture that are unacceptable. There is a difference between influence and imperialism, but of course you know this.
How can I as a woman in England impose any beliefs on someone in another country miles away. There is no imposition. And you really think there are no attempts by people in other countries to criticise the western world? That's just laughable and embarrassing.
But ultimately by trying to put words in my mouth you've used the disreputable device of deflecting the argument away from where it should be. As I say, I reserve the right to criticise other countries and that doesn't make me racist or imperialistic. [Post edited 5 Nov 2022 9:49]
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| World Cup of Shame on 09:51 - Nov 5 with 2235 views | nix |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:30 - Nov 5 by lightwaterhoop |
Several thousands of years ago you say.No just no! look up your history before you post things. |
Oh how witty to use my words. Haha. 1300 years ago then. Fine. | | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 10:28 - Nov 5 with 2194 views | OldhamR |
Good to see a full and frank debate at least.
I'll keep my powder dry for now, the one thing I noticed this week was that the Qatari's are drafting in thousands of Turkish riot police. I don't know who else would be able to police this, maybe so many from each country but I cannot see this ending well. | | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 10:32 - Nov 5 with 2182 views | essextaxiboy |
I have a problem with this ..
As I have said before I have 2 boys who work for FIFA , they are both Rangers ST holders , 1 living near the C and S and one in Zurich.
They both went there from a Prem club and were handed this ballache of a World Cup to sell commercial parnerships . It hasnt been easy but they have worked their guts out doing huge long days . My eldest has a new son and is travelling every week to try and tie up the remaining deals . Mrs Taxiboy is in W12 more than me . They both have to go to Quatar and work at the tournament
So on a personal level I want it to be a success , for their careers and as a reward.
My head of course wants nothing to do with it , I dont watch England anyway so I will just watch the games where the boys are so we can chat online |  | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 11:12 - Nov 5 with 2097 views | Sakura |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:47 - Nov 5 by nix |
What a load of shit. I didn't say any of those things you've ascribed to me. I didn't say anything about working conditions, let alone that there's no other place in the world or issues that need addressing. In fact I made that very point.
I didn't say that people shouldn't speak or work with people who have opinions they disagree with.
Why are you accusing me of having a goal. I was expressing an opinion. What's your goal?
You really love flinging insults around as some kind of gotcha rhetorical device.. virtue signalling, the latest one. I could equally accuse you of virtue signalling in your defence of cultural mores, making you so even handed and understanding.
I literally said that there are things about my culture that are unacceptable. There is a difference between influence and imperialism, but of course you know this.
How can I as a woman in England impose any beliefs on someone in another country miles away. There is no imposition. And you really think there are no attempts by people in other countries to criticise the western world? That's just laughable and embarrassing.
But ultimately by trying to put words in my mouth you've used the disreputable device of deflecting the argument away from where it should be. As I say, I reserve the right to criticise other countries and that doesn't make me racist or imperialistic. [Post edited 5 Nov 2022 9:49]
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Sorry I hadn’t realised your criticism was just between virtue signalling and private thoughts and that some of the their laws aren't something you agree with
Didn’t realise you don’t actually want anything done about your criticisms
But what's being discussed here is further on than that. Some are expressing the bigoted view that the country should be excluded due to issues connected to their religious beliefs
And when I say "shouldn't speak or work with people who have opinions they disagree with" I was referring to those criticising Neville and Beckham.
I hadn't realised that you are okay with Neville and Beckham going out there and working for this tournament | | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 11:26 - Nov 5 with 2104 views | loftupper |
| World Cup of Shame on 08:09 - Nov 5 by Sakura |
It is quite strange to see the Guardianista's taking an openly racist position
Do we have a right to impose our beliefs on Qatar anymore then some one from Qatar has a right to impose their cultural beliefs and norms onto us in our society
Qatar is a Muslim country. I'm not sure if any of you are aware of this but they tend to take their religion quite seriously and the Quran condemns homosexuality.
Now thankfully that isn't a belief that is acceptable in this country. But I find it surprising the imperialistic and prejudicial views against another country and it's religion being put forward on this board [Post edited 5 Nov 2022 8:11]
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Its an interesting angle of attack you have taken there, a little simplistic but thats not surprising.
Are you aware that the Guardian is simply a newspaper and not really able to impose their views on Qatar or anyone else. | | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 11:34 - Nov 5 with 2083 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| World Cup of Shame on 13:40 - Nov 4 by BuckR |
Neville and Lineker swear blindly they are going to use the platform to highlight the issues with Qatar but I don't see it
Do like Neville but its a rare blot on his card |
Neville interviewed my old boss for a Sky documentary a few years back.
Him and his camera crew had got lost in the building so off I went to find them. When I did, one of the African security guards is going mental. Usual stuff, he's a huge fan, loved United all his life and he's embarassing everyone by saying...it's you, its really you.
Calming the bloke down and getting everyone in the lift, I pipe up: 'the bloke will finish work tonight, call his home back in Africa and proudly annouce, today I met Phil Neville's brother!'
Gafaws over, I had a long chat with him. Actually a really nice lad. |  |
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| World Cup of Shame on 11:36 - Nov 5 with 2034 views | Sakura |
| World Cup of Shame on 11:26 - Nov 5 by loftupper |
Its an interesting angle of attack you have taken there, a little simplistic but thats not surprising.
Are you aware that the Guardian is simply a newspaper and not really able to impose their views on Qatar or anyone else. |
If that’s the case then what is the point of all this other than virtue signalling? | | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 11:43 - Nov 5 with 2048 views | thame_hoops |
| World Cup of Shame on 13:44 - Nov 4 by Isleworthranger |
We fly out on the 18th November and have 12 nights booked in Dubai so will be using the shuttle flights to Doha for the three group games and then fly to Pakistan for a days to watch the first Test Match out there and then back to either Doha or Dubai again
To be fair the tickets are not a bad price and we get a full refund for any remaining up to the final if/when we get knocked out but could be looking at just over a month away from home if we go all the way |
This trip sounds amazing mate |  | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 18:55 - Nov 5 with 1897 views | loftupper |
| World Cup of Shame on 11:36 - Nov 5 by Sakura |
If that’s the case then what is the point of all this other than virtue signalling? |
Apologies but can you elaborate, what’s the point of what, a newspaper? Or the fact they are writing about something? | | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 19:18 - Nov 5 with 1867 views | dmm |
As soon as you see the term "virtue signalling" you know the user has probably run out of road with their argument. It's used almost always by those on the right to try to cast aspersions on those who take an ethical stance on an issue, something that seems to get a few people very hot under the collar. |  | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 20:09 - Nov 5 with 1808 views | kensalriser |
Neighbourhood stray shitting all over the garden again. |  |
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| World Cup of Shame on 22:36 - Nov 5 with 1719 views | Boston |
| World Cup of Shame on 19:18 - Nov 5 by dmm |
As soon as you see the term "virtue signalling" you know the user has probably run out of road with their argument. It's used almost always by those on the right to try to cast aspersions on those who take an ethical stance on an issue, something that seems to get a few people very hot under the collar. |
Not really, most who are accused of such are guilty of so.
One thing I've always liked about the UK is that you have a press where one can actually read different opinions. | |
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| World Cup of Shame on 07:59 - Nov 6 with 1582 views | dmm |
Well done German football supporters. Will we see anything like this over here I wonder?
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