| Harrogate (h) Match Thread 16:08 - Dec 1 with 33921 views | HullDale |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:51 - Dec 5 with 3241 views | Dalenet |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 17:45 - Dec 5 by 442Dale |
That was sort of my point. Even when people are given reasoned, fact-based counter arguments with additional examples, the choice to dismiss or completely ignore until the next bad home defeat, is becoming predictable. |
Not sure which of us that is aimed at. But we are struggling financially now as the AGM pack covered in some detail. Many people on this messageboard know that. Take away the Pyramid/TV funding that League Two clubs get and we'd be cut adrift. It costs half a million quid to run the stadum each season. Even if our crowds didn't drop most of the value of ex VAT ticket sales would barely cover the cost of the stadium.
For me the current position is just as serious as the Morton House takeover. People feared for the future of the club then. To dismiss the risk associated with relegation is foolhardy and I hope that we can all galvanise our collective energy to make sure that it doesn't happen. We can't sleep walk into it |  | | |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 19:14 - Dec 5 with 3169 views | 442Dale |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:51 - Dec 5 by Dalenet |
Not sure which of us that is aimed at. But we are struggling financially now as the AGM pack covered in some detail. Many people on this messageboard know that. Take away the Pyramid/TV funding that League Two clubs get and we'd be cut adrift. It costs half a million quid to run the stadum each season. Even if our crowds didn't drop most of the value of ex VAT ticket sales would barely cover the cost of the stadium.
For me the current position is just as serious as the Morton House takeover. People feared for the future of the club then. To dismiss the risk associated with relegation is foolhardy and I hope that we can all galvanise our collective energy to make sure that it doesn't happen. We can't sleep walk into it |
Agree on some of those points. There’s a real concern over what we do moving forward to continue to compete at whatever level we are at, with an ongoing, reinforced focus on how we bridge gaps in the finance. That’s why supporters are hoping to see movement in how we are looking to tackle these issues, with a clear indication that we can make positive to change to build on all the work done over the last 18 months. The AGM itself did not appear to have sort of real concern for the future of the club - if there was it could and should have been made apparent. Similarly, at the Trust AGM, where, with their links to the club, it would have been high on the agenda.
Relegation would be awful, that’s of little doubt. It has to be avoided if at all possible. It would be a real blow to the current financial model which has the current funding factored in.
That all said, there is no evidence being put forward that if we are relegated and those circumstances do change we cannot make the necessary changes to ensure the club continues as many others do at non league levels. Would fully expect the club to have contingencies in place now should it happen as well; it’s planning for all eventualities.
We’d be in real trouble if we drop out of the league. We’d be in even bigger trouble if we all saw such an event as the end of the club. It’s spot on that we should galvanise to avoid going down to the National League.
If the worst comes to the worst though, we will have to galvanise again. That’s why we have a club today. |  |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 19:38 - Dec 5 with 3108 views | D_Alien |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:51 - Dec 5 by Dalenet |
Not sure which of us that is aimed at. But we are struggling financially now as the AGM pack covered in some detail. Many people on this messageboard know that. Take away the Pyramid/TV funding that League Two clubs get and we'd be cut adrift. It costs half a million quid to run the stadum each season. Even if our crowds didn't drop most of the value of ex VAT ticket sales would barely cover the cost of the stadium.
For me the current position is just as serious as the Morton House takeover. People feared for the future of the club then. To dismiss the risk associated with relegation is foolhardy and I hope that we can all galvanise our collective energy to make sure that it doesn't happen. We can't sleep walk into it |
"To dismiss the risk associated with relegation is foolhardy and I hope that we can all galvanise our collective energy to make sure that it doesn't happen. We can't sleep walk into it"
Our "collective energy" has been galvanised, and the season started with the squad knowing we were right behind them with new fan initiatives to make more noise, etc. I'm not sure there's any lack of galvanisation, but there's a limit to what the club and fans can do once the players step over the line on matchday. EBJ is hardly lacking in being galvanised either
None of us are sleep-walking, we're wide awake to the dangers of our position. The players get applauded onto the pitch every game but from thereon in, not performing (for whatever reason) takes its toll on the atmosphere. What i would say is that getting on players backs, either during the game or subsequently, does absolutely nothing to help. The odd reminder to players in the heat of the game is entirely natural but there have also been vendettas waged outside that context. Some might say they were justified but again, to what end? In my opinion, only to increase the likelihood that their performance will remain less than desirable, knowing that if they make a mistake the vilification starts - as it did on Saturday
We're 100% behind the board, and fully understand the onerous nature of their position which they took up willingly. As 442 says, if there's a clear and present danger, it needs to be spelled out. To not do so would indeed be sleep-walking into disaster
[Post edited 5 Dec 2022 19:43]
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 19:39 - Dec 5 with 3101 views | 442Dale |
Not sure if anyone can find if this has changed since the information was provided in the following link:
https://www.efl.com/news/2015/november/league-increases-parachute-payments-to-re
“100% of the equivalent Basic Award payment made to League 2 clubs in the first year following relegation.
- 50% of the equivalent Basic Award payment made to League 2 clubs in the second year following relegation (unless a club achieves promotion back to The Football League at the first attempt).”
If that remains the case, it’s an initial basis for any plan for any club who may be relegated from the EFL.
Not that it needs to be us, because there’s plenty of points to play for and that bottom 5/6 is still very close at the moment. Two good results make a massive difference. Look at Newport, eight points clear of the bottom two now. | |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 20:12 - Dec 5 with 3031 views | TVOS1907 |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:51 - Dec 5 by Dalenet |
Not sure which of us that is aimed at. But we are struggling financially now as the AGM pack covered in some detail. Many people on this messageboard know that. Take away the Pyramid/TV funding that League Two clubs get and we'd be cut adrift. It costs half a million quid to run the stadum each season. Even if our crowds didn't drop most of the value of ex VAT ticket sales would barely cover the cost of the stadium.
For me the current position is just as serious as the Morton House takeover. People feared for the future of the club then. To dismiss the risk associated with relegation is foolhardy and I hope that we can all galvanise our collective energy to make sure that it doesn't happen. We can't sleep walk into it |
I'm not sure anyone is dismissing the risk associated with relegation, but when throwaway numbers are presented as facts, they deserve to be challenged regardless of how good one's Maths is. |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 20:34 - Dec 5 with 2980 views | James1980 |
Yes why would Rochdale be the first club in over 70 years to become defunct and have no successor, if we were to drop out of the EFL? [Post edited 5 Dec 2022 20:37]
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 21:01 - Dec 5 with 2933 views | EllDale |
I think that a lot of this fear of losing league status comes from memories that those of us of a certain age have of the horrible days of the late 1970s.
The notion then was that Dale, if they lost their league status, could become a second Bradford Park Avenue or Accrington Stanley.
They were plenty of photos around of their former grounds, now forlornly derelict and overgrown.
The future looked bleak if the team failed to gain re-election.
Times have changed but those feelings remain.
The difference now is that there is a proper league pyramid and a better structure to semi-professional football. [Post edited 5 Dec 2022 21:03]
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 21:28 - Dec 5 with 2868 views | James1980 |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 21:01 - Dec 5 by EllDale |
I think that a lot of this fear of losing league status comes from memories that those of us of a certain age have of the horrible days of the late 1970s.
The notion then was that Dale, if they lost their league status, could become a second Bradford Park Avenue or Accrington Stanley.
They were plenty of photos around of their former grounds, now forlornly derelict and overgrown.
The future looked bleak if the team failed to gain re-election.
Times have changed but those feelings remain.
The difference now is that there is a proper league pyramid and a better structure to semi-professional football. [Post edited 5 Dec 2022 21:03]
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Both of those clubs still exist in some guise one of them is currently winning at home, the other plays in the league above the one we are in at present. | |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 22:16 - Dec 5 with 2809 views | EllDale |
Both went out of existence for several years though. The new clubs had no connection apart from sharing the same name. | | | |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 09:49 - Dec 6 with 2506 views | AtThePeake |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 22:16 - Dec 5 by EllDale |
Both went out of existence for several years though. The new clubs had no connection apart from sharing the same name. |
That was a long time ago though.
Well run clubs don't go out of business after dropping out of the EFL anymore because they have contingency plans in place. Those that do go out of business are the ones that were poorly run or risking their futures by overspending when they were in the EFL anyway. There isn't a single one of us on this forum that hope those contingencies have to become a reality, but the majority of us can trust that this board wouldn't do anything to risk the future of the club and if that means very drastic cost-cutting in order to safeguard that future on the back of a relegation into non-league, then that's an incredibly unfortunate but necessary evil.
This idea that the club would cease to exist in non-league holds little weight when you compare us to clubs of similar size that have dropped out of the EFL that haven't been run by charlatans. I understand tensions are running high but it's an incredible over-reaction to be genuinely worrying about the death of the club or relegation to the '8th or 9th tier' on the back of a dreadful performance in a 4th tier game. |  |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 13:58 - Dec 6 with 2265 views | 49thseason |
"Well run clubs don't go out of business after dropping out of the EFL " may well be true but this club wasn't run well enough for years and the cost of that mismanagement is now coming to a head. We are the victims of an incompetent previous BoD and CEO and an incompetent EFL which throughout the 2 covid seasons , one curtailed early and one where there were no crowds, continued to grant the lions share of TV money to Championship clubs rather than split it equally between the 72 which they should be doing anyway.
And the same EFL negotiated a ÂŁ250m bail out from the Premiership and split it on the basis of just ÂŁ50m for L1and L2 ( actually ÂŁ375k for L1 clubs and ÂŁ250k for L2 clubs leaving ÂŁ200m available as an interest free loans to 24 championship clubs... a cool ÂŁ8.3m each when if divided equally it could have given each EFL club ÂŁ2.5m and still have a contingency of ÂŁ80m). And had it done so we would now have a better squad and balance sheet.
The EFL is a corrupt, incompetent organisation which treats small clubs as an irritation rather than partners. Championship clubs get the majority representation, and guess what? .. They vote to enrich themselves! What a shock! |  | | |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 14:39 - Dec 6 with 2201 views | DorkingDale |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 21:07 - Dec 4 by TVOS1907 |
OK, I'll try again.
Unfortunately, that sort of detailed data isn't readily available, so unless someone has trawled through the breakdown of home and away fans for the whole of League 2 and the National League, any conclusion based on such data is pure speculation.
What I can tell you, though, is that the average number of Dale fans at home this season currently stands at 2,285.
If you go back to those National League figures and have a good guess at away followings (bearing in mind the likes of Wrexham, Notts County, Oldham, Chesterfield, York, etc, will average significantly more away than the likes of Crawley and Harrogate), I would guess every team from Scunthorpe (or maybe Woking) upwards are the only ones with more home fans than us based on current figures.
Also, if our figure of 2,285 is a loss of 40%, that means the average number of home fans in a season in the last ten years would have been 3,808.
The highest since we started keeping records in 1997/98 is 3,070 Dale fans at home in the 2009/10 promotion season, which signifies a drop of 25.6%, although a promotion campaign is some form of outlier.
Of course, things aren't good and the figures are falling and will do so while the team is struggling, but it's always good to be able to back up opinion and speculation with facts and figures, especially when trying to guess what might happen. [Post edited 4 Dec 2022 21:11]
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Interestingly, I think that Dorking's attendances are matching Dale this season........and those are mostly home fans as the away end is very small. | | | |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:45 - Dec 6 with 2069 views | TVOS1907 |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 14:39 - Dec 6 by DorkingDale |
Interestingly, I think that Dorking's attendances are matching Dale this season........and those are mostly home fans as the away end is very small. |
Dorking's average attendance this season is 1916.
Take off away fans, albeit in a small away end, and the figure is still at least 400 less than Dale fans attending Spotland.
EDIT: Fair play to the 18 Dorking fans at The Shay tonight [Post edited 6 Dec 2022 21:06]
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| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:53 - Dec 6 with 2062 views | HullDale |
How are our attendances calculated?
Is it Season Tickets sold + POTD + Hospitality?
Is it Season Ticket Holders 'in attendance' + POTD + Hospitality?
Or are there other things to consider too? | | | |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 17:17 - Dec 6 with 2028 views | 442Dale |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 13:58 - Dec 6 by 49thseason |
"Well run clubs don't go out of business after dropping out of the EFL " may well be true but this club wasn't run well enough for years and the cost of that mismanagement is now coming to a head. We are the victims of an incompetent previous BoD and CEO and an incompetent EFL which throughout the 2 covid seasons , one curtailed early and one where there were no crowds, continued to grant the lions share of TV money to Championship clubs rather than split it equally between the 72 which they should be doing anyway.
And the same EFL negotiated a ÂŁ250m bail out from the Premiership and split it on the basis of just ÂŁ50m for L1and L2 ( actually ÂŁ375k for L1 clubs and ÂŁ250k for L2 clubs leaving ÂŁ200m available as an interest free loans to 24 championship clubs... a cool ÂŁ8.3m each when if divided equally it could have given each EFL club ÂŁ2.5m and still have a contingency of ÂŁ80m). And had it done so we would now have a better squad and balance sheet.
The EFL is a corrupt, incompetent organisation which treats small clubs as an irritation rather than partners. Championship clubs get the majority representation, and guess what? .. They vote to enrich themselves! What a shock! |
“… but this club wasn't run well enough for years”
Which years? Barring the much publicised events under the previous regime, isn’t it universally regarded we have been a well run club at L1/2 level? [Post edited 6 Dec 2022 18:16]
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:57 - Dec 6 with 1896 views | TVOS1907 |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:53 - Dec 6 by HullDale |
How are our attendances calculated?
Is it Season Tickets sold + POTD + Hospitality?
Is it Season Ticket Holders 'in attendance' + POTD + Hospitality?
Or are there other things to consider too? |
Dunno, but would think it's the same as everyone else's, unless they have better mathematicians. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 19:43 - Dec 6 with 1835 views | DaleiLama |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 18:57 - Dec 6 by TVOS1907 |
Dunno, but would think it's the same as everyone else's, unless they have better mathematicians. |
I don't know if you can have POTD hospitality, but you can certainly have SC upgrade to hospitality. On this basis there will be some folks in A ∩ B, as depicted below, where A = SC holder and B = hospitality guest with a one match upgraded SC.
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On this basis, wouldn't it be very dangerous to add A + B (+C in the case raised by HD) and think it would give you the correct gate, as it would be artificially inflated by double counting?
That also got me thinking further. I think there is also such a thing as a hospitality SC. Nightmare. That's as far as my rudimentary knowledge of Venn Diagrams and ailing memory goes and even this may be wrong?
Perhaps there is a case for mathematicians getting involved?  |  |
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 20:40 - Dec 6 with 1747 views | 49thseason |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 17:17 - Dec 6 by 442Dale |
“… but this club wasn't run well enough for years”
Which years? Barring the much publicised events under the previous regime, isn’t it universally regarded we have been a well run club at L1/2 level? [Post edited 6 Dec 2022 18:16]
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Do you actually read anything I write or do you just feel the need to be arsey on purpose?? The previous BOD was moribund for years even under Dunphy, they took the easy choices every time, they let Bottom run the show both as Director and as CEO. Kilpatrick did FA except in his favourite hotel, no one was actually actively managing the Club they didnt even have monthly management accounts so they had no idea if they were making money or losing it. The bogs were filthy, the bars were crap, the stadium was covered in birdshit and from the look of things they were treating the place like a private club. Employees were unmanaged, phones went unanswered, Emails were we never returned no one was bothered as long as they didnt have to put their hands in their pockets. How much do you think Westrose Leisure paid to sponsor the away stand? Who was it abusing fans from the Directors box and who did nothing about it? ? Who oversaw the destruction of the Goldbond? Who agreed to spend ÂŁMs on pitch renovations without wondering if we really needed them? They thought they could exist on the basis of a transfer or a cup run, well that has come home to roost hasn't it? Instead of looking to improve the place they allowed it to just bump along, no plan, no ambition, no ideas., happy just to get from one season to the next.
When do you think this club has ever been well run? The waste and carelessness has been apparent to anyone bothered to look and listen for decades.
Perhaps you spend too much time worrying about the number of stripes on the shirts and not enough just looking around?
As for "universally regarded this club was well run"... by whom, by what measurement? Longest ever stay in L2, never winning anything, a century of non- attainment other than 3 promotions from L2, never as Champions? Its surprising how complimentary people can be when they are more or less guaranteed to beat you at least once a season. 31 home victories in 5 and a half seasons tells you all you need to know. [Post edited 6 Dec 2022 20:44]
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 20:54 - Dec 6 with 1716 views | 442Dale |
I do indeed read posts. And some points raised about the past are valid.
One look at this messageboard down the years proves how many fans were frustrated at missed opportunities and how the club was run logistically.
The universal thing is that we are held as an example of being well run because we live within our means. Could we have done much better over the years? Definitely. The aim has to be to do better now as well.
Edit: the stripes line was good! But to reiterate from previously, time and again I have tried to influence change and improve things for the club and fans on here, directly to the club and via the Trust to the point it was probably an annoyance. It’s possibly my failing not enough was done, but I’ve tried. [Post edited 6 Dec 2022 21:00]
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| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 21:57 - Dec 6 with 1601 views | EllDale |
To emphasise how the bottom of the National League is like a quagmire Oldham have lost again tonight, this time to Boreham Wood.
Next to bottom and four points from safety. | | | |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 22:18 - Dec 6 with 1569 views | MikeB66 |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 21:57 - Dec 6 by EllDale |
To emphasise how the bottom of the National League is like a quagmire Oldham have lost again tonight, this time to Boreham Wood.
Next to bottom and four points from safety. |
I think i saw in another thread Boreham Wood have signed George Broadbent on loan same one we had last season | | | |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 22:49 - Dec 6 with 1533 views | 49thseason |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 20:54 - Dec 6 by 442Dale |
I do indeed read posts. And some points raised about the past are valid.
One look at this messageboard down the years proves how many fans were frustrated at missed opportunities and how the club was run logistically.
The universal thing is that we are held as an example of being well run because we live within our means. Could we have done much better over the years? Definitely. The aim has to be to do better now as well.
Edit: the stripes line was good! But to reiterate from previously, time and again I have tried to influence change and improve things for the club and fans on here, directly to the club and via the Trust to the point it was probably an annoyance. It’s possibly my failing not enough was done, but I’ve tried. [Post edited 6 Dec 2022 21:00]
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Thankyou for your heartfelt reply. My frustration is obvious as is that of many others, and clearly you. The question is " what can we do about it"? We have no fairy godfather, the banks won't lend us any money and I dont imagine that there are many shareholders who can afford to keep buying more and more shares. Currently our only tangible asset is the ground. Frankly this is where the EFL is culpable, lending ÂŁ200m interest free to The Championship clubs instead of making it available to clubs like ours is entirely reprehensible the TV money and the premiership money should be being pumped into the whole of the EFL. We could probably build a new stadium on Kingsway for ÂŁ10m plus the value of Spotland. We could have built a hotel and truckstop alongside to help our revenues and become profitable and sustainable. But the Championship took it and will waste it on desperate attempts to reach the Premiership. Its just crackers. Championship clubs are regularly in financial trouble and the EFL does nothing except throw more money at them. We need the 48 clubs from L1 and L2 to quit the EFL and run their own affairs. Relegation and promotion are overrated as a means of creating competition, we could maybe have 2 regional divisions competing to get into a seasons-end N v S final We could retain the FA cup competition and have our own league cup. Clubs could become financially sound and redirect money into their communities and Academies.
This dog eat dog system isnt fit for purpose. | | | |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 23:30 - Dec 6 with 1506 views | Sandyman |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 22:18 - Dec 6 by MikeB66 |
I think i saw in another thread Boreham Wood have signed George Broadbent on loan same one we had last season |
And good old George provided the assist for the Boreham Wood winner. Proper Daley.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62776485 |  | | |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 00:16 - Dec 7 with 1484 views | Shun |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 16:12 - Dec 5 by RooleyMoorBlue |
That is if all the figures you quote are to be believed. Before you say why wouldn't they, up until recently we had a criminal running the club.
I still stand by everything I've said even if my maths is not as good as yours, allegedly. |
Blimey. I admire your commitment to doom-mongering but I have to say it’s rare you see someone presented with facts and still refuse to accept they’re wrong! |  | | |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 08:38 - Dec 7 with 1332 views | dawlishdale |
| Harrogate (h) Match Thread on 00:16 - Dec 7 by Shun |
Blimey. I admire your commitment to doom-mongering but I have to say it’s rare you see someone presented with facts and still refuse to accept they’re wrong! |
There's a lot of "I'm right therefore everyone else is wrong" on both sides of the argument as to what would happen should we drop out of the EFL.
In all honesty, none of us knows, and thus it's silly to start arguing about it.
What is beyond doubt is that we are currently struggling both on and off the pitch with as poor a squad as I can remember for over 20 years (even under Barrow we could scrape a few 1-0 wins especially at home) and it's becoming very obvious that our cash flow position is not good.
A previous poster is correct in that for several years now our previous BOD perhaps took their fingers off the pulse momentarily assuming they had done their job and could relax. However, I know from first hand experience that the real problems started the day that a certain person was appointed a Director without the club doing any due diligence on him. Had they done even the most basic checks on him they would never have let him near. From almost day one, he caused arguments, division and bad feeling within the Boardroom and had several heated arguments with the Trust, who were proven correct on every occasion . Basically; he destabilised the hard work that had been carried out for many years to such an extent that some of the Directors chose to leave or stay away from him. He also (and this is how he succeeded) managed to fool several club employees and got them in his camp by fair means or by giving them incentives of one sort or another.
We are still paying as a club for said person's wrongdoings, and it might well be that ultimately, he costs us our EFL status.
The new Board are to be applauded for picking up the mantle at a most challenging time, but the Black hole is growing, and will continue to grow if we drop out of the league. However; they are neither of perfect judgement having made some strange decisions regarding the last Manager and his recruitment; nor have they got bottomless pockets having paid a small fortune to Curran et al .
For this reason alone, the January transfer window is probably the most important one we have ever faced. We need to change so many of the squad that it frightens me. What we have now would struggle 2 leagues below where we currently sit.
So... to everyone who is able to do so, please dig deep regarding the share issue, and put some much needed capital into the club. Yes; it's a bad time to have a share issue, but it might be our last chance to save our league position...one that we have fought so hard for so long to preserve. | | | |
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