| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 08:35 - Sep 20 with 2288 views | wombat |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 07:22 - Sep 20 by QPR_Jim |
I'm always super excited to find out what Mr Benham has said on the subject of stadiums though. |
We missed the boat with aval land local to the club , there is no real propect of building in the local area now ,
yes a possible rebuild could work just ,
buy the jack tizzard school first of all
this would allow us to build both a larger school end stand
same for the loft , also would prob allow us small increase in the south africa road and ellerslie so id guess 23k max capacity at a push . if and its a huge if they could get the council to close south africa road to traffic they could then build back overhaning the road on south africa road more coporate areas more rev.
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if not perfect but its better than we have at present. |  |
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| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 11:20 - Sep 20 with 2105 views | BostonR |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 23:21 - Sep 19 by NewBee |
Taking the the owners' financial commitment first, of course that has been extremely generous to date, but tbh, in recent seasons it has only served to keep the club from going bust.
Which leaves two routes out of the present situation. The first would be by getting promotion to the PL, but even if they were prepared to put more money into the team, that is curtailed by FFP, as you know.
While the other would be to put serious money into a new stadium and infrastructure etc so as to bring in the extra revenue to make the club self-sustaining.
On which point, training ground aside, they've shown no sign of committing to a new stadium elsewhere (see eg the LCS, or Car Giant), which leaves you back at LR, as they indicated at the FF.
On which point, of course LR meets minimum safety standards - if it didn't it would be curtailed or even closed.
But if it were to be rebuilt, even redeveloped completely, the Council would certainly demand higher standards than currently on offer at LR, so as to future-proof it for the next 50-odd years. While such a process could not allow for a capacity increase, if anything it would only restrict it further.
And it would cost many millions, and even after all this time in charge, they've not given any indication that they're prepared to do that either. (Note: "prepared" is not the same as "able") I suspect this is because it would take years, decades even, to see a return on the necessary investment.
Anyhow, that's how I see it, much of it based on seeing how Brentford had to address a similar situation. Of course I could be wrong, in which case demonstrate how it is so, preferably without the aggression. |
Honestly, I give up. Just drivel and utter bollocks. |  | | |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 13:25 - Sep 20 with 1951 views | NewBee |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 08:35 - Sep 20 by wombat |
We missed the boat with aval land local to the club , there is no real propect of building in the local area now ,
yes a possible rebuild could work just ,
buy the jack tizzard school first of all
this would allow us to build both a larger school end stand
same for the loft , also would prob allow us small increase in the south africa road and ellerslie so id guess 23k max capacity at a push . if and its a huge if they could get the council to close south africa road to traffic they could then build back overhaning the road on south africa road more coporate areas more rev.
.
if not perfect but its better than we have at present. |
If you put it like that, then it "could" work.
But you would never get away with it, for a variety of reasons. First, is the Council likely to permit you to buy the school? Why would they, esp if it was going to alienate local parents who send their kids there?
Ditto closing Sth Africa Road - can you imagine the outcry from local residents? You know, people who pay Council Tax and vote in local elections.
Then there is the rebuild itself. Although technically you could maybe fit in 23k seats, the footprint is so small that under present regulations, there is no way you'd be allowed to cram that many in nowadays. That is, no cramped seats, narrow concourses, or restricted food and drink facilities and barely adequate toilet facilities. I don't know what the disabled facilities are like at LR, but I doubt they're anything near what you have to provide these days. Medical, Police and Security arrangements? Then you have access and egress requirements in the event of an emergency, plus modern turnstiles/entry arrangements. Segregation for away fans. TV and media requirements. All of these are much more stringent than used to be the case pre-Hillsborough and so take up a large part of the available space which you might otherwise wish to allocate to spectators.
Then there is the cost. Aside from all the above, obviously you can't have stanchions restricting views etc, meaning you need cantilever roofs, which are expensive but also heavy, thereby requiring deep foundations etc. While building out over S.Africa Rd would be hugely expensive, as Bees found when considering building over a railway line. Even Man U have baulked at the cost of similar at Old Trafford, while Liverpool had to spend many extra millions extending one stand that way at Anfield.
While you would want to reserve space for Corporates and Sponsors etc, at the expense of ordinary punters. Worse still, General Admission seats are not nearly so cost-effective as Premium seats, even though you can squeeze more in. For example, Brentford originally planned the GTech to hold 20k seats, but then realised they would make more money overall by replacing some of them with Premium seating, even though that brought the capacity down to 17.5k.
All of which indicates that a major rebuild of LR such as you suggest, even if permitted by the Council etc, would cost a huge sum, without increasing capacity - if anything it would reduce it. Which in turn would never repay the investment in the lifetime of the new construction.
Which I suspect is why the present owners have shown no real inclination to embark on such a course, despite their being easily able to afford it otherwise.
I say all this as someone who was sad to see Bees leave Griffin Park. But the more I see of the GTech, the more I realise that staying put even at a rebuilt GP stadium, was NEVER a viable option. And I can't see how QPR's situation at LR is much different. [Post edited 20 Sep 2023 13:29]
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| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 14:09 - Sep 20 with 1890 views | dannyblue |
On schools...I don't think buying a school and rebuilding a better one nearby is out of the question. Developers have just done that with Queensmill school on Barlby Road...
Someone here probably knows, but are there any plans to redevelop the White City Estate? Many of these era estates are being rebuilt. If there are, then shifting South Africa road and incorporating a bigger footprint for QPR becomes a possibility.
Duckgoed a bit, and something is starting this winter, https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/housing/building-homes-and-communities/white-city-centra
plus a school redevelopment project. https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/massive-new-65-million-education
'Just' need to work on getting the council to view QPR as a community asset and something to be cherished and incorporated, rather than a Malaysian millionaire's plaything. |  | | |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 14:14 - Sep 20 with 1873 views | Northernr |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 14:09 - Sep 20 by dannyblue |
On schools...I don't think buying a school and rebuilding a better one nearby is out of the question. Developers have just done that with Queensmill school on Barlby Road...
Someone here probably knows, but are there any plans to redevelop the White City Estate? Many of these era estates are being rebuilt. If there are, then shifting South Africa road and incorporating a bigger footprint for QPR becomes a possibility.
Duckgoed a bit, and something is starting this winter, https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/housing/building-homes-and-communities/white-city-centra
plus a school redevelopment project. https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/massive-new-65-million-education
'Just' need to work on getting the council to view QPR as a community asset and something to be cherished and incorporated, rather than a Malaysian millionaire's plaything. |
The headteacher at the Jack Tizard is apparently very keen for a new site as they've outgrown the current one, so could be a win win. |  | | |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 14:57 - Sep 20 with 1762 views | NewBee |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 14:14 - Sep 20 by Northernr |
The headteacher at the Jack Tizard is apparently very keen for a new site as they've outgrown the current one, so could be a win win. |
But would the proceeds from the sale of the JT site be enough to buy a new site and build a new school on it?
And if not, who's going to stump up the difference? This woman?
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/gillian-keegan-raac-concrete-temporary- | | | |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 15:11 - Sep 20 with 1766 views | BostonR |
Well if you do your homework you will see that the Board have a company called Genesis Housing and have build over 650 residential units.
It’s a partnership so if the school were purchased there is already a vehicle to deliver an alternative facility. | | | |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 15:25 - Sep 20 with 1727 views | NewBee |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 15:11 - Sep 20 by BostonR |
Well if you do your homework you will see that the Board have a company called Genesis Housing and have build over 650 residential units.
It’s a partnership so if the school were purchased there is already a vehicle to deliver an alternative facility. |
Getting someone to build it is hardly the problem, is it?
Whereas acquiring a suitable new site nearby and providing the cash to get a school built on it is rather different, no?
I mean, it's not like buying some land, then going in with a housing association to build houses on it, so you and they can get the money back by selling/renting them.
But hey, as someone who's clearly done his own homework on Old Oak Common, pray tell me did the scheme cost QPR money? Or did they break even? Made a profit?
P.S. No sign of a school at Oaklands btw. | | | |
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| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 15:49 - Sep 20 with 1711 views | TK1 |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 15:25 - Sep 20 by NewBee |
Getting someone to build it is hardly the problem, is it?
Whereas acquiring a suitable new site nearby and providing the cash to get a school built on it is rather different, no?
I mean, it's not like buying some land, then going in with a housing association to build houses on it, so you and they can get the money back by selling/renting them.
But hey, as someone who's clearly done his own homework on Old Oak Common, pray tell me did the scheme cost QPR money? Or did they break even? Made a profit?
P.S. No sign of a school at Oaklands btw. |
There's a barely occupied Territorial Army base about 200 yards up South Africa Road. Even closer than that there are Power League pitches. Redevelopment of both to include a school would be straight-forward, especially if the council was in concert with the board and school. Additionally, the housing behind White City is all being redeveloped currently and there are certainly plans to update White City Estate. I imagine that crescent of flats around the large green behind Batman Close behind the Loft is open to discussion...there's all kind of possibilities that go nowhere without council consultation and agreement.
I mean, I have no idea why you care. Enjoy your stadium, it's very nice, good for you. I never thought about Griffin Park other than we played you and I spend even less time on the new place other than when I pass it on a train out of London. If you're that invested in QPR's ground, though, take a walk down South Africa Road - it's unrecognisable from the way it looked five years ago, right up to White City Estate and QPR, which is next. Look at TV centre, all the new flats, Soho House, etc...gentrification is sweeping westwards. There's a bigger picture we cannot see. But why do you care this much, Brentford fan? | | | |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 15:59 - Sep 20 with 1669 views | CamberleyR |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 14:14 - Sep 20 by Northernr |
The headteacher at the Jack Tizard is apparently very keen for a new site as they've outgrown the current one, so could be a win win. |
Hmmm, isn't there some old run down council owned athletics stadium nearby...  |  |
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| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 16:06 - Sep 20 with 1643 views | dmm |
Buying the Jack Tizzard school site is all very well but I've pointed out several times in the past there are houses in Imre Close that take up at least a quarter of the space behind the Ellerslie Road stand - see the link below. So acquiring the site is one thing, extending the stadium into that area is quite another and I'm not sure how it would be done.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Loftus+Road+Stadium/@51.5091506,-0.2334649,138 |  | | |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 16:28 - Sep 20 with 1578 views | NewBee |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 15:49 - Sep 20 by TK1 |
There's a barely occupied Territorial Army base about 200 yards up South Africa Road. Even closer than that there are Power League pitches. Redevelopment of both to include a school would be straight-forward, especially if the council was in concert with the board and school. Additionally, the housing behind White City is all being redeveloped currently and there are certainly plans to update White City Estate. I imagine that crescent of flats around the large green behind Batman Close behind the Loft is open to discussion...there's all kind of possibilities that go nowhere without council consultation and agreement.
I mean, I have no idea why you care. Enjoy your stadium, it's very nice, good for you. I never thought about Griffin Park other than we played you and I spend even less time on the new place other than when I pass it on a train out of London. If you're that invested in QPR's ground, though, take a walk down South Africa Road - it's unrecognisable from the way it looked five years ago, right up to White City Estate and QPR, which is next. Look at TV centre, all the new flats, Soho House, etc...gentrification is sweeping westwards. There's a bigger picture we cannot see. But why do you care this much, Brentford fan? |
"Why do I care?"
It's not so much that I "care", more than that I'm interested, what with being a stadium nerd and all that.
You know, the sort of geek who finds stuff like this interesting:
https://www.architectural-review.com/essays/typology/typology-stadium | | | |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 16:39 - Sep 20 with 1582 views | BostonR |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 15:25 - Sep 20 by NewBee |
Getting someone to build it is hardly the problem, is it?
Whereas acquiring a suitable new site nearby and providing the cash to get a school built on it is rather different, no?
I mean, it's not like buying some land, then going in with a housing association to build houses on it, so you and they can get the money back by selling/renting them.
But hey, as someone who's clearly done his own homework on Old Oak Common, pray tell me did the scheme cost QPR money? Or did they break even? Made a profit?
P.S. No sign of a school at Oaklands btw. |
A fellow poster has beaten me to it with an array of different options-all viable. I don’t have the financials on the Genesis housing development so I can’t comment other than there is a development option open to the Board.
Why don’t you revisit when the options are made public and you can share your insight and expertise with us? | | | |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 18:48 - Sep 20 with 1471 views | NewBee |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 16:39 - Sep 20 by BostonR |
A fellow poster has beaten me to it with an array of different options-all viable. I don’t have the financials on the Genesis housing development so I can’t comment other than there is a development option open to the Board.
Why don’t you revisit when the options are made public and you can share your insight and expertise with us? |
When you say "a development option", do you mean an option to develop the OOC site to include a new stadium?
For if so, then that appears to have been ruled out at the Fans Forum, see eg daveB's comment: "Linford Christie stadium very unlikely, other stadium sites are too far away, in talks with council about redeveloping loftus Road but sounded like very early in that process", or that of Connell10: "Ruben basically said we won't be leaving Loftus Road they want to develop it , with the councils support." | | | |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 18:59 - Sep 20 with 1459 views | QPR_Jim |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 16:06 - Sep 20 by dmm |
Buying the Jack Tizzard school site is all very well but I've pointed out several times in the past there are houses in Imre Close that take up at least a quarter of the space behind the Ellerslie Road stand - see the link below. So acquiring the site is one thing, extending the stadium into that area is quite another and I'm not sure how it would be done.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Loftus+Road+Stadium/@51.5091506,-0.2334649,138 |
Interestingly (or not) I can't find any sold house prices for Imre Close so I would speculate that it's owned by the council and we could perhaps negotiate with them if we were to re-provide the same number of houses in another location, much like the school. |  | | |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 20:21 - Sep 20 with 1389 views | E17hoop |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 18:59 - Sep 20 by QPR_Jim |
Interestingly (or not) I can't find any sold house prices for Imre Close so I would speculate that it's owned by the council and we could perhaps negotiate with them if we were to re-provide the same number of houses in another location, much like the school. |
A flat on ER is half a mil and most of the properties are 2 or 3 flats. £1.5m per property, and 24 or so means £36m before you even start to look at development costs. Not going to happen. |  |
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| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 20:37 - Sep 20 with 1352 views | QPR_Jim |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 20:21 - Sep 20 by E17hoop |
A flat on ER is half a mil and most of the properties are 2 or 3 flats. £1.5m per property, and 24 or so means £36m before you even start to look at development costs. Not going to happen. |
Imre Close isn't ER though and there's no record of there having ever sold houses in Imre Close, so may only cost the amount of re-providing accomodation elsewhere in the vicinity. | | | |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 20:52 - Sep 20 with 1299 views | CateLeBonR |
Thanks Clive. I hesitate to say so but they're starting to sound almost competent. |  | | |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 22:01 - Sep 20 with 1228 views | Northernr |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 16:06 - Sep 20 by dmm |
Buying the Jack Tizzard school site is all very well but I've pointed out several times in the past there are houses in Imre Close that take up at least a quarter of the space behind the Ellerslie Road stand - see the link below. So acquiring the site is one thing, extending the stadium into that area is quite another and I'm not sure how it would be done.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Loftus+Road+Stadium/@51.5091506,-0.2334649,138 |
Two broad ideas.
1 - you knock the school down and use it to build effectively an office block to contain your club offices, box office, shop, hospitality suites, conferencing whatever, four or five storeys in keeping with the flats all around it. You then knock everything that's currently on the back of SARS down and you can start that stand with a lot more space for bigger capacity, concourses etc.
2You knock the school down and, possibly in conjunction with also getting some/all of the batman close flats which are now terribly run down, build a very large, sweeping curved SARS stand utilising that new space at either end.
This post has been edited by an administrator | | | |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 22:35 - Sep 20 with 1169 views | QPRConor2000 |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 14:09 - Sep 20 by dannyblue |
On schools...I don't think buying a school and rebuilding a better one nearby is out of the question. Developers have just done that with Queensmill school on Barlby Road...
Someone here probably knows, but are there any plans to redevelop the White City Estate? Many of these era estates are being rebuilt. If there are, then shifting South Africa road and incorporating a bigger footprint for QPR becomes a possibility.
Duckgoed a bit, and something is starting this winter, https://www.lbhf.gov.uk/housing/building-homes-and-communities/white-city-centra
plus a school redevelopment project. https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/massive-new-65-million-education
'Just' need to work on getting the council to view QPR as a community asset and something to be cherished and incorporated, rather than a Malaysian millionaire's plaything. |
Well spotted.
Maybe this is what the Club and the Council have been working together on?
According to the LBHF website it says that there will be 268 new homes as part of the White City Central project by 2028, so that could, and I reiterate could, allow the club to potentially extend the footprint of Loftus Road without upsetting the community.
Ruben also saying that they will reveal plans soon was interesting too, have they been working on it in the background potentially as their Plan B option.
still its very welcome it seems that we are on very positive terms with the Council than in previous times and hopefully that continues. | | | |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 23:20 - Sep 20 with 1117 views | E17hoop |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 14:14 - Sep 20 by Northernr |
The headteacher at the Jack Tizard is apparently very keen for a new site as they've outgrown the current one, so could be a win win. |
That school has already been built - it's opposite the TA centre at the top of SA Road. | |
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| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 06:47 - Sep 21 with 1040 views | Northernr |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 23:20 - Sep 20 by E17hoop |
That school has already been built - it's opposite the TA centre at the top of SA Road. |
Oh really? Is that what this is? I knew it was a school but I didn't realise it was a replacement for that. | | | |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 13:00 - Sep 21 with 850 views | QPRConor2000 |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 06:47 - Sep 21 by Northernr |
Oh really? Is that what this is? I knew it was a school but I didn't realise it was a replacement for that. |
Interesting. [Post edited 21 Sep 2023 13:03]
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| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 14:02 - Sep 21 with 778 views | kernowhoop |
| All quiet on the Western Avenue – Fans Forum on 13:25 - Sep 20 by NewBee |
If you put it like that, then it "could" work.
But you would never get away with it, for a variety of reasons. First, is the Council likely to permit you to buy the school? Why would they, esp if it was going to alienate local parents who send their kids there?
Ditto closing Sth Africa Road - can you imagine the outcry from local residents? You know, people who pay Council Tax and vote in local elections.
Then there is the rebuild itself. Although technically you could maybe fit in 23k seats, the footprint is so small that under present regulations, there is no way you'd be allowed to cram that many in nowadays. That is, no cramped seats, narrow concourses, or restricted food and drink facilities and barely adequate toilet facilities. I don't know what the disabled facilities are like at LR, but I doubt they're anything near what you have to provide these days. Medical, Police and Security arrangements? Then you have access and egress requirements in the event of an emergency, plus modern turnstiles/entry arrangements. Segregation for away fans. TV and media requirements. All of these are much more stringent than used to be the case pre-Hillsborough and so take up a large part of the available space which you might otherwise wish to allocate to spectators.
Then there is the cost. Aside from all the above, obviously you can't have stanchions restricting views etc, meaning you need cantilever roofs, which are expensive but also heavy, thereby requiring deep foundations etc. While building out over S.Africa Rd would be hugely expensive, as Bees found when considering building over a railway line. Even Man U have baulked at the cost of similar at Old Trafford, while Liverpool had to spend many extra millions extending one stand that way at Anfield.
While you would want to reserve space for Corporates and Sponsors etc, at the expense of ordinary punters. Worse still, General Admission seats are not nearly so cost-effective as Premium seats, even though you can squeeze more in. For example, Brentford originally planned the GTech to hold 20k seats, but then realised they would make more money overall by replacing some of them with Premium seating, even though that brought the capacity down to 17.5k.
All of which indicates that a major rebuild of LR such as you suggest, even if permitted by the Council etc, would cost a huge sum, without increasing capacity - if anything it would reduce it. Which in turn would never repay the investment in the lifetime of the new construction.
Which I suspect is why the present owners have shown no real inclination to embark on such a course, despite their being easily able to afford it otherwise.
I say all this as someone who was sad to see Bees leave Griffin Park. But the more I see of the GTech, the more I realise that staying put even at a rebuilt GP stadium, was NEVER a viable option. And I can't see how QPR's situation at LR is much different. [Post edited 20 Sep 2023 13:29]
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Not everyone will agree with you, NewBee, but we should thank you for your considered thoughts which are guided by real-life experience at the (now more famous) bus stop. | | | |
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