| So Cifuentes ? 12:16 - Dec 15 with 19998 views | WokingR |
A welcome return for a much loved manager or
booed as a Beale like lying deserter ?
I might clap him first half then boo him for the second |  | | |  |
| So Cifuentes ? on 16:21 - Dec 18 with 1157 views | joe90 |
| So Cifuentes ? on 15:44 - Dec 18 by Northernr |
Come on, that's just silly.
Ainsworth took over a team that had been top of the league in October, winning nine of its first 16 games. He won three out of 13 games in charge, losing eight.
Cifuentes took over a team that had won two of its first 16 games and was six points adrift in the relegation zone in October. He won 13 of his 30 games including 8 of the last 14. |
Wasn't there a thing about the Beale's team's xg basically saying we were overperforming during that purple patch?
We stayed up both times and both managers got the elbow. So to what extent is it the manager or players?
Marti was fine, was he special? Not convinced. Maybe he just has a taste for clubs in chaos? |  | | |
| So Cifuentes ? on 16:30 - Dec 18 with 1131 views | Northernr |
| So Cifuentes ? on 16:21 - Dec 18 by joe90 |
Wasn't there a thing about the Beale's team's xg basically saying we were overperforming during that purple patch?
We stayed up both times and both managers got the elbow. So to what extent is it the manager or players?
Marti was fine, was he special? Not convinced. Maybe he just has a taste for clubs in chaos? |
Well I agree with your last line - fine, pretty good in my opinion, but not 'special'.
I can't get on board with the idea that Ainsworth saved us from Beale as much as Cifuentes saved us from Ainsworth though. It's just proveable nonsense.
xG or no xG the team was literally top of the league after 16 games and nearly went down. Every other team that's been top after 16 games in the last 10 years got promoted. |  | | |
| So Cifuentes ? on 16:41 - Dec 18 with 1095 views | joe90 |
| So Cifuentes ? on 16:30 - Dec 18 by Northernr |
Well I agree with your last line - fine, pretty good in my opinion, but not 'special'.
I can't get on board with the idea that Ainsworth saved us from Beale as much as Cifuentes saved us from Ainsworth though. It's just proveable nonsense.
xG or no xG the team was literally top of the league after 16 games and nearly went down. Every other team that's been top after 16 games in the last 10 years got promoted. |
xG or no xG the team was literally top of the league after 16 games and nearly went down. Every other team that's been top after 16 games in the last 10 years got promoted.
I'd be interested to know the xG of those teams...you might not like it as a stat, but it did prove right. Also, let's not forget Willock was a key part in our form until he got injured.
My point isn't to argue about how good Ainsworth was. The football was total dog sh*t under him. It's more about to what extent did Marti save us and is he worthy of the praise he gets. [Post edited 18 Dec 16:48]
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| So Cifuentes ? on 16:44 - Dec 18 with 1090 views | Northernr |
| So Cifuentes ? on 16:41 - Dec 18 by joe90 |
xG or no xG the team was literally top of the league after 16 games and nearly went down. Every other team that's been top after 16 games in the last 10 years got promoted.
I'd be interested to know the xG of those teams...you might not like it as a stat, but it did prove right. Also, let's not forget Willock was a key part in our form until he got injured.
My point isn't to argue about how good Ainsworth was. The football was total dog sh*t under him. It's more about to what extent did Marti save us and is he worthy of the praise he gets. [Post edited 18 Dec 16:48]
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Well that point is debateable you're right.
For me though having stood through those away games at Leeds and West Brom at the end of Ainsworth, and then been there for the return fixtures under Cifuentes that was really quite some turn around with a squad that was very, very poor. | | | |
| So Cifuentes ? on 16:52 - Dec 18 with 1062 views | KensalT |
| So Cifuentes ? on 16:30 - Dec 18 by Northernr |
Well I agree with your last line - fine, pretty good in my opinion, but not 'special'.
I can't get on board with the idea that Ainsworth saved us from Beale as much as Cifuentes saved us from Ainsworth though. It's just proveable nonsense.
xG or no xG the team was literally top of the league after 16 games and nearly went down. Every other team that's been top after 16 games in the last 10 years got promoted. |
Think you're being a bit harsh on Ainsworth.
GA didn't succeed Beale he succeeded Critchley who had an 8.33% win rate as QPR manager:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
We're also glossing over the fact that Beale tailed off very badly during his time here with no wins in his last five (IIRC).
Beale was a flash in the pan. He had us overachieving for a few weeks, at the cost of lengthy injuries to Willock and Amos who were rushed back too soon.
That season's slump started under Beale who didn't have any answers once he had been worked out by the rest of the league.
Ainsworth did keep us up that season. It might have been more luck than judgement and the win at Burnley might have been the biggest heist since Ronnie Biggs and the boys fancied a night out train spotting in Bedfordshire, but to talk of Ainsworth having a promotion squad is a very one-eyed revision of history. |  | | |
| So Cifuentes ? on 16:57 - Dec 18 with 1053 views | 7374Ranger |
| So Cifuentes ? on 14:54 - Dec 15 by Bluce_Ree |
I've got no beef with Marti. He kept us up when we were at our absolute nadir. |
agreed.
I know he spoilt the good feeling about him by speaking with WBA (via his agent), but it was obvious for weeks before, that things weren't right behind the scenes with Nourry. So I don't really blame him - and his actions cannot be compared with Beale. He blatantly lied to us all about his loyalty, Cifuentes was honest that he would stay only if he and the club were aligned in ambition and direction for the club. | | | |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:02 - Dec 18 with 1035 views | WadR |
Will get polite applause from me.
Agree with your point above Clive and that Ainsowrth and Cifuentes are not equatable.
Under Ainsworth we were losing 4-0 at Watford and Gaz was saying 'look, we may have just played the league winner' (reader, they ended up on the same number of points as us), going away to West Brom acting as if they were Man City, managing 25% possession with the bleakest football. I love Ainsworth but, even with a crap squad, he was an absolute disaster.
Cifuentes wasn't perfect but almost instantly got much better results. Any manager who can get a 4-0 win against Leeds out of more or less the same squad is demonstrably a better manager who we should be grateful for - or else there's a good chance we'd have been playing in league 1.
I think our squad this season is much better than the squads Marti had to work with and do wonder what he'd have been like with better striker options and a deeper squad.
The topic of Cifuentes does make me wonder about the conundrum of Madsen. Was he so crap for the majority of last season just because he was adjusting to the league or was Marti failing him in some way? Was Cifuentes mis-using him playing him so advanced? I don't think anyone, before this season, could've anticipated Madsen being one of our better players playing every game in a 4-4-2. Is that just credit to Stephan and Madsen? Or is there something Cifuentes was missing? | | | |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:07 - Dec 18 with 1017 views | 7374Ranger |
| So Cifuentes ? on 20:33 - Dec 16 by Hunterhoop |
Dowie had a decent record in the short time he was in charge before Briatore binned him.
Magilton wasn’t in that list becuase, from memory, the football was decent under him.
Haven’t included De Sousa or Gigi Di Canio either, as don’t remember them having particularly dreadful football. But dull at times but not awful.
That list was meant to be managers who I remembered some awful football and performances under to counter the comment I was replying to.
Gerry was great first time around, but that second spell had some shocking performances in it and the football was very poor.
Holloway in that first spell had mainly great times and lots of wins, but early on there were still some awful performances and dreadful football (Vauxhall Motors…).
This is kind of my point, under Cifuentes I don’t think the team and performances ever really plumped such depths. Maybe 2-0 away loss to Millwall. The losses, especially at the start of the 2nd season weren’t so much awful football as simply being way too open. Hull and Boro at home spring to mind.
That list I gave provided us, at times, with worse football than anything Cifuentes did.
But, to be clear, I hope Stephan proves to be even better. It’s looking positive. More to work with, but I like him. And I hope we stuff Leicester!
It’s not a Cifuentes or Stephan debate.
I just don’t see how any sane QPR fan, who has been around for a while, can think Cifuentes, at the very least, was anything worse than decent for us. Personally, I’m grateful he kept us in this league over two seasons with a set of strikers of Dykes and Armstrong in one season, and Frey and Celar in another… |
Re your last paragraph. It was a minor footballing miracle that he not only kept QPR, but actually finished quite clear of the bottom 3 (especially the 1st season after taking over with QPR 6 points from safety).
How short some fans' memories are. | | | |
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| So Cifuentes ? on 17:08 - Dec 18 with 1014 views | Northernr |
| So Cifuentes ? on 16:52 - Dec 18 by KensalT |
Think you're being a bit harsh on Ainsworth.
GA didn't succeed Beale he succeeded Critchley who had an 8.33% win rate as QPR manager:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
We're also glossing over the fact that Beale tailed off very badly during his time here with no wins in his last five (IIRC).
Beale was a flash in the pan. He had us overachieving for a few weeks, at the cost of lengthy injuries to Willock and Amos who were rushed back too soon.
That season's slump started under Beale who didn't have any answers once he had been worked out by the rest of the league.
Ainsworth did keep us up that season. It might have been more luck than judgement and the win at Burnley might have been the biggest heist since Ronnie Biggs and the boys fancied a night out train spotting in Bedfordshire, but to talk of Ainsworth having a promotion squad is a very one-eyed revision of history. |
I haven't said that he did.
I agree with all of that as you know. | | | |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:10 - Dec 18 with 1006 views | 7374Ranger |
| So Cifuentes ? on 22:02 - Dec 16 by Lblock |
You weren’t at Swansea away that season then?
My God….. the “football” we served up that night….. woeful |
i do recall that game was terrible and I seem to recall they had an outfield player in goal for much of the game.
However, overall he had a decent record. | | | |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:17 - Dec 18 with 978 views | KensalT |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:08 - Dec 18 by Northernr |
I haven't said that he did.
I agree with all of that as you know. |
Apologies if I've misrepresented or misinterpreted your point.
But I think this sentence could be interpreted as suggesting that Ainsworth underachieved with what was a 'promotion' squad, or at the very least a squad that was far better than a relegation scrap:
"xG or no xG the team was literally top of the league after 16 games and nearly went down. Every other team that's been top after 16 games in the last 10 years got promoted."
And to be fair to Ainsworth not many teams top of the league after 16 games burn through three managers in one season! | | | |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:17 - Dec 18 with 979 views | 7374Ranger |
| So Cifuentes ? on 12:39 - Dec 18 by Northernr |
Value of better forwards. |
spot on.
Celary was useless and Frey got injured. Having 2 good strikers helps and gives the team hope that they can turn a1 goal deficit into a win. | | | |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:18 - Dec 18 with 979 views | francisbowles |
| So Cifuentes ? on 15:41 - Dec 18 by joe90 |
6 point difference across the three seasons from Beale to Marti. Overstated claim as I said. |
Oops hit upvoter in error | | | |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:20 - Dec 18 with 968 views | Northernr |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:17 - Dec 18 by KensalT |
Apologies if I've misrepresented or misinterpreted your point.
But I think this sentence could be interpreted as suggesting that Ainsworth underachieved with what was a 'promotion' squad, or at the very least a squad that was far better than a relegation scrap:
"xG or no xG the team was literally top of the league after 16 games and nearly went down. Every other team that's been top after 16 games in the last 10 years got promoted."
And to be fair to Ainsworth not many teams top of the league after 16 games burn through three managers in one season! |
It was not a good squad by any means. But it was better than 2 wins in 30 games and 6-1 defeats at bloody Blackpool.
My point was on the 'saved us as much as Ainsworth' thing though. Ainsworth took over a team that was top of the league in October, Cifuentes took one that was six points adrift. To suggest they both saved us as much as each other is just plain daft. | | | |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:23 - Dec 18 with 943 views | 7374Ranger |
| So Cifuentes ? on 14:56 - Dec 18 by joe90 |
The 'Marti saved us' narrative is overstated, much like the line about Stephan not understanding the league. Marti saved us as much as Ainsworth saved us from Beale.
There's a bit of group think going on here.
Last thing I will say about Marti, his song was f*cking awful! |
Really?
Ainsworth had a 10 point lead over the bottom 3 when he took charge compared to Cifuentus taking over a side6points from safety. | | | |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:23 - Dec 18 with 937 views | Northernr |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:23 - Dec 18 by 7374Ranger |
Really?
Ainsworth had a 10 point lead over the bottom 3 when he took charge compared to Cifuentus taking over a side6points from safety. |
That's my point! Thank you x | | | |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:27 - Dec 18 with 921 views | KensalT |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:20 - Dec 18 by Northernr |
It was not a good squad by any means. But it was better than 2 wins in 30 games and 6-1 defeats at bloody Blackpool.
My point was on the 'saved us as much as Ainsworth' thing though. Ainsworth took over a team that was top of the league in October, Cifuentes took one that was six points adrift. To suggest they both saved us as much as each other is just plain daft. |
I'm personally of the view that Ainsworth doesn't get enough credit for keeping us up and that a lot of the problems with the squad that season were in place before GA arrived.
But I do agree with you that Marti's rescue job was the bigger achievement. We looked dead and buried that season and GA definitely wouldn't have saved us a second time. | | | |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:31 - Dec 18 with 909 views | KensalT |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:23 - Dec 18 by 7374Ranger |
Really?
Ainsworth had a 10 point lead over the bottom 3 when he took charge compared to Cifuentus taking over a side6points from safety. |
Ainsworth had a ten point cushion over the bottom three when he arrived because of a purple patch under Beale early in the season.
Another way of looking at it is that we had won 1 in 17 before Ainsworth was appointed.
We were not in a good place when Neil Critchley was sacked and with the players seemingly not having NC I don't think he would have kept us up if we had stuck with him until the end of the season. | | | |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:32 - Dec 18 with 909 views | 7374Ranger |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:23 - Dec 18 by Northernr |
That's my point! Thank you x |
no worries.
I don't think Cifuentes was brilliant, but cannot underestimate his achievements with a poor squad. | | | |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:52 - Dec 18 with 848 views | ted_hendrix |
I was delighted when GA was appointed Manager and even more delighted when he was sacked, as a player for us he gave It all, hypocritical maybe but they're you go.
I sincerely hope when Cifuentes gets on the bus to go home he's crying his bloody eyes out. |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
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| So Cifuentes ? on 21:33 - Dec 18 with 722 views | Myke |
| So Cifuentes ? on 14:40 - Dec 18 by Northernr |
We took four points from both Oxford and Cardiff last season?
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Yes, I was referring to the ‘quality’ of the football in those games, rather than the results | | | |
| So Cifuentes ? on 22:34 - Dec 18 with 666 views | captainmycaptian |
Right not the sharpest football brain but
The football under GA was utter utter dross also the results were shocking. The Burnley win which we needed was well unbelievable amazing result. As I remember we had to win it ??
The football un MC was better and some what entertainment. The results were much better, we competed much more stayed up comfortably in rhe end. Typically Missed that Leeds game but caught the Preston game before that and that was a vital win. We were more in control and it was simply more enjoyable to watch and go. So MC by a country mile imo | | | |
| So Cifuentes ? on 08:51 - Dec 19 with 585 views | TheChef |
| So Cifuentes ? on 17:02 - Dec 18 by WadR |
Will get polite applause from me.
Agree with your point above Clive and that Ainsowrth and Cifuentes are not equatable.
Under Ainsworth we were losing 4-0 at Watford and Gaz was saying 'look, we may have just played the league winner' (reader, they ended up on the same number of points as us), going away to West Brom acting as if they were Man City, managing 25% possession with the bleakest football. I love Ainsworth but, even with a crap squad, he was an absolute disaster.
Cifuentes wasn't perfect but almost instantly got much better results. Any manager who can get a 4-0 win against Leeds out of more or less the same squad is demonstrably a better manager who we should be grateful for - or else there's a good chance we'd have been playing in league 1.
I think our squad this season is much better than the squads Marti had to work with and do wonder what he'd have been like with better striker options and a deeper squad.
The topic of Cifuentes does make me wonder about the conundrum of Madsen. Was he so crap for the majority of last season just because he was adjusting to the league or was Marti failing him in some way? Was Cifuentes mis-using him playing him so advanced? I don't think anyone, before this season, could've anticipated Madsen being one of our better players playing every game in a 4-4-2. Is that just credit to Stephan and Madsen? Or is there something Cifuentes was missing? |
Re Madsen I think he was struggling to adapt to a new country and a new league - and Cifuentes didn't have the bandwidth (or couldn't be bothered) to deal with him while trying to get a competitive team out of the squad he was left to deal with. |  |
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| So Cifuentes ? on 12:49 - Dec 19 with 496 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| So Cifuentes ? on 08:51 - Dec 19 by TheChef |
Re Madsen I think he was struggling to adapt to a new country and a new league - and Cifuentes didn't have the bandwidth (or couldn't be bothered) to deal with him while trying to get a competitive team out of the squad he was left to deal with. |
I always assumed based on nothing other than vibes, that Madsen was not a Cifuentes backed signing. |  | | |
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