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QPR were bankrolled beyond its means to very moderate eventual success and then significant, lasting failure by first Briatore/Ecclestone/Bhatia (Mittal) and then the ludicrous moneybags clown show of Fernandes/Gnanalingam/Bhatia (Mittal). All substantially wealthier than Walker.
We massively overspent, bought terribly, grossly broke financial rules. Where did it get QPR? Now we talk not of buying world class players as we did at the dawn of both those eras - we instead we dream of developing players and then selling them for profit. Like Bournemouth, Brighton or Brentford. How mad would that have sounded in 2008? Through the looking glass.
Money *guarantees* nothing.
Owners should spend what they wish. FFP/PSR is a racket designed just to protect the top three or four clubs. It hasn't helped control transfer fees, nor wages, nor ticket prices, nor saved clubs down the pyramid, hasn't prevented clubs being billions in debt. It has not levelled the playing field at all. None of its reasoning for being is in place. Throw it in the bin.
BUT ownership needs/needed vastly stronger controls. Too late now. But...
Nation states should not own British football clubs. US corporate multi-sport entities should not own British football clubs. Chinese, Far East billionaire speculators should not own British football clubs. Non-dom Bond villains should not own British football clubs. I'm sorry but Malaysian shipping magnets should not own British football clubs.
British football invited vast nation state-sized wealth into its sport, people with zero attachment to the clubs, but - for whatever reason in each case - a keen need to win. Then it imposed spending limits on them. If anyone thinks that Abu Dhabi alone flaunted what they deem these piddling restrictions is in for a shock.
The PL will be forced to impose huge sanctions if this document stands up as it can be read - shell companies with AI stock photos for CEOs, etc. But the Abu Dhabi royal family and men like Al Mubarak, Shiek Mansour are not going to meekly accept humiliation. They will not accept defeat. They're embedded in Britain, especially in Burnham's Manchester. Watching that Soriano video would no doubt have shaken the PL...it could get very dark, very quickly.
It's not just about Man City. I think it's potentially existential for the Premier League.
It must be the most QPR thing ever that we dropped out of the PL just as the big TV money started rolling in, and we got back just in time for FFP to be introduced.
How's your luck?
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Man City - GUILTY on 15:11 - Sep 30 with 1435 views
We overspent and breached the rules but I don’t think we tried to hide anything or mislead the regulators?
Well, we weren't caught. No. But QPR weren't ever charged by the PL for an offence, even though QPR's signings and wages suggested obvious breaches. QPR were sanctioned by the EFL, because the EFL have a keener eye on those trying to secure the riches of the PL unfairly.
Let's not forget the PL did not instigate this with Man City. They have no desire to get into a battle with Abu Dhabi (or Saudi, Fenway, Clearlake, whoever: hence the pitiful CFC sanction). They were forced to because the emails were hacked. If the emails hadn't been hacked and details of the crimes released abroad, this would all be under the carpet, Man City top of the league, going for another title. Nothing to see here.
That's why it's such a huge existential issue for the league. Let's imagine Abu Dhabi start some investigations of their own in retaliation. Nobody is clean here.
EDIT: But my comparison wasn't between QPR under the Briatore/Ecclestone or Fernandes/Bhatia eras and Man City; it was between those money bag QPR owners and Jack Walker. He did much more with possibly less. I think owners should spend what they like as long as the debt is largely theirs, not the club's.
[Post edited 30 Sep 15:19]
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Man City - GUILTY on 15:18 - Sep 30 with 1390 views
Man City - GUILTY on 14:50 - Sep 30 by kensalriser
I can't really see the argument they're going to get away with a light punishment.
The depth and breadth of the charges is unprecedented, and City are still denying and contesting it all. The PL is going to have to levy serious punishment, otherwise the whole thing is a farce, including the PL itself. They'll be tossing away all their credibility and clout for what?
Thinking logically, I agree with you.
The scale of City's cheating is incredible, and any punishment should reflect that.
But the City owners do have an unusually large amount of political leverage. And if they fight it out to the bitter end they might do severe damage to the PL's reputation in the process.
So I don't think this is over or that anything should be taken for granted.
Maybe if the City fans turned on the owners then the owners might throw in the towel. But I haven't seen anything to suggest that could happen.
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Man City - GUILTY on 16:03 - Sep 30 with 1289 views
Lashing yourself to a sinking ship is a very stupid thing for Guardiola to do.
He's just being a contrary fcker as usual. If they'd found them not guilty he'd probably have come out as a whistleblower. I remember this time last year when he was asked whether he'd manage them if they were relegated down the leagues and he said it would make him "more likely to stay" rather than less. Walked that walk didn't he?
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Man City - GUILTY on 16:29 - Sep 30 with 1209 views
But this whole mess has highlighted that you can't allow owners to spend what they like. Owners are now Billionaires, not the local garage owner done good, who can spend hundreds of millions and think nothing of it. City dominated football because money was no object and if a rival matched them they would be able to spend more and more. Allowing all owners to spend whatever would make it worse.
City have directly caused other teams to over stretch themselves, inflated player, manager and agent wages/fees across Europe and this has trickled down the English pyramid causing teams to fold.
The only way to fix this whole mess is to bring in a wage cap like the US. It would reduce the quality but might just save the game from itself.
"The only way to fix this whole mess is to bring in a wage cap like the US".
Or maximum player budget, e.g. you can spend up to - random figure - £100m per season. If you want to splurge £50m of that on one megastar, fine, but your total spend can't exceed the £100m. I seem to remember Serie A tried something like that.
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
1
Man City - GUILTY on 16:38 - Sep 30 with 1177 views
Man City - GUILTY on 16:29 - Sep 30 by R_from_afar
"The only way to fix this whole mess is to bring in a wage cap like the US".
Or maximum player budget, e.g. you can spend up to - random figure - £100m per season. If you want to splurge £50m of that on one megastar, fine, but your total spend can't exceed the £100m. I seem to remember Serie A tried something like that.
It's amazing how dislikable Man City have become considering how much goodwill they had before their blatant cheating. When they won the league against us I was genuinely happy, first and foremost because QPR were safe, but once that was secure I was delighted that they pipped Man U to the title: I really despised Man U in the 90's and 00's. But since then, their distortion of any sort of fair play and equitable competition in football combined with their attitude has made them my most disliked club in football behind Chelsea, and that's saying something given how much I still dislike Man U and the other clubs at the top.of the pyramid.
Now I wonder if while all this is going on the TV companies which have forked out astronomical sums on the broadcast rights have quietly instructed their lawyers.
The "product" which they invested in has been massively devalued by this scandal. We'll see.
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
2
Man City - GUILTY on 17:02 - Sep 30 with 1093 views
The scathing nature of the statements describing the charges Man City have been found in breach of, together with the descriptions of their lack of transparency, engagement with the process and downright deceit, in any kind of sane world, this would mean 100% they get the book thrown at them with the most intense velocity.
From that statement and then you read the response from the City Board almost denying all and complaining about the descriptions of them lacking credibility and being deliberately evasive. Almost as if they still consider themselves as white as white.
The massive gulf between the two supposed positions , there really should be absolutely annihlated as a club for at the very least for the next nine or ten seasons, on par with how long they were massively overestimating revenues and underplaying costs.
They SHOULD be removed not only from the PREMIER LEAGUE but also from all tiers of the EFL too. Basically BIN them completely.
Will that happen. It really really should, but I am very nervous that the outcome will show terrible weaknesses from the governing bodies and a lack of punishment due to the enormous wealth of this club as is.
Tbf, as a club, I didnt mind City doing so well. It was nice to see Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and United all having times where they simply werent good enough. But the very fact their whole period of domination was a complete sham, fk 'em, I say.
We have all seen the corruptness in the football world hierarchy, displayed dreadfully by the dishonesty of Infantino and FIFA. Somehow, i still believe that the punishments will be slender. Nowhere near fitting the immense shithousery of Man Citys awful cheating over season after season after season. The whole credibility of football is at stake.
Will the correct and relevant sentences be served ???
I saw 25 peppa pigs getting id'd this morning in wetherspoons and all 25 were given their pints of very strong lager.
Did this happen ???
Thats about how close to being real, that their punishment will be to being true, fair and just !!
But this whole mess has highlighted that you can't allow owners to spend what they like. Owners are now Billionaires, not the local garage owner done good, who can spend hundreds of millions and think nothing of it. City dominated football because money was no object and if a rival matched them they would be able to spend more and more. Allowing all owners to spend whatever would make it worse.
City have directly caused other teams to over stretch themselves, inflated player, manager and agent wages/fees across Europe and this has trickled down the English pyramid causing teams to fold.
The only way to fix this whole mess is to bring in a wage cap like the US. It would reduce the quality but might just save the game from itself.
A wage cap would result in even more work arounds.
City haven’t forced others clubs to do anything, other clubs are responsible for their spending decisions, if they choose to go toe to toe with big spenders then more fool them.
City’s owners wanted to spend in the same way Abramovich and Jack Walker did, or Sunderland’s owners did way back when, or pretty much any other club that’s had success. They weren’t allowed to so looked for ways around it, as did chelsea. If owners want to spend at no risk to their club, let them. Man Utd are £1bn in debt which is apparently ok, I know which of those scenarios concerns me more.
But this whole mess has highlighted that you can't allow owners to spend what they like. Owners are now Billionaires, not the local garage owner done good, who can spend hundreds of millions and think nothing of it. City dominated football because money was no object and if a rival matched them they would be able to spend more and more. Allowing all owners to spend whatever would make it worse.
City have directly caused other teams to over stretch themselves, inflated player, manager and agent wages/fees across Europe and this has trickled down the English pyramid causing teams to fold.
The only way to fix this whole mess is to bring in a wage cap like the US. It would reduce the quality but might just save the game from itself.
I think there is still creative accounting in the US, not sure they are the ideal model to copy.
In the NBA I think they have the concept of a soft cap, so they can overspend and pay a fine
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Man City - GUILTY on 17:51 - Sep 30 with 940 views
Man City - GUILTY on 16:29 - Sep 30 by R_from_afar
"The only way to fix this whole mess is to bring in a wage cap like the US".
Or maximum player budget, e.g. you can spend up to - random figure - £100m per season. If you want to splurge £50m of that on one megastar, fine, but your total spend can't exceed the £100m. I seem to remember Serie A tried something like that.
A maximum player budget will also result in more workarounds.
Haaland will be sold for £2m on the books whilst £100m will be transferred from one off shore account to another well away from football.
This is the crux of the issue with FFP/PSR rules, they only work if they’re actually enforceable and there aren’t any workarounds. But there always will be.
A maximum player budget will also result in more workarounds.
Haaland will be sold for £2m on the books whilst £100m will be transferred from one off shore account to another well away from football.
This is the crux of the issue with FFP/PSR rules, they only work if they’re actually enforceable and there aren’t any workarounds. But there always will be.
I think it'd be got around with player swaps instead of transfer fees and it would be more like horse trading. We are there now, when we see bang average players being transferred for huge sums of money.
Was it when we bought Luongo and bundled in another player to avoid paying agents fees? There is always a work around in Football, an asterisk in the contract.
The youth team player moves to Fulham and his mum and dad get a new car... This is just on a massive scale so big it couldnt be hidden
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Man City - GUILTY on 18:20 - Sep 30 with 855 views
I think it'd be got around with player swaps instead of transfer fees and it would be more like horse trading. We are there now, when we see bang average players being transferred for huge sums of money.
Was it when we bought Luongo and bundled in another player to avoid paying agents fees? There is always a work around in Football, an asterisk in the contract.
The youth team player moves to Fulham and his mum and dad get a new car... This is just on a massive scale so big it couldnt be hidden
It would've been hidden if their emails hadn't been hacked. The hack is the key element here. None of this comes out otherwise and the PL would not have investigated after the last CAS hearing win for City.
On that point, I feel a bit for them. As Medway R states, compare the way they've run City to the way Man U have been run in the same period: Man U £1bn in debt with a failing team, leaking roofs, protests from fans at their ill-treatment, redundancies of long-serving staff to cut costs, still massively over-spending £75m on Sesko etc to no avail ...Man City have rejuvenated the entire area, provided 100s of new jobs, rebuilt infrastructure, remodelled football, won dozens of trophies, comfortably in the black...
They face generational sanctions; Man United, carry on lads, you may win something real now again. Man City cheated, but they only got caught because of a hack. Imagine what we'd find in everyone else's emails. Let's have a look at the details of the transfers between Chelsea and Villa, for starters.
1
Man City - GUILTY on 18:23 - Sep 30 with 839 views
QPR were bankrolled beyond its means to very moderate eventual success and then significant, lasting failure by first Briatore/Ecclestone/Bhatia (Mittal) and then the ludicrous moneybags clown show of Fernandes/Gnanalingam/Bhatia (Mittal). All substantially wealthier than Walker.
We massively overspent, bought terribly, grossly broke financial rules. Where did it get QPR? Now we talk not of buying world class players as we did at the dawn of both those eras - we instead we dream of developing players and then selling them for profit. Like Bournemouth, Brighton or Brentford. How mad would that have sounded in 2008? Through the looking glass.
Money *guarantees* nothing.
Owners should spend what they wish. FFP/PSR is a racket designed just to protect the top three or four clubs. It hasn't helped control transfer fees, nor wages, nor ticket prices, nor saved clubs down the pyramid, hasn't prevented clubs being billions in debt. It has not levelled the playing field at all. None of its reasoning for being is in place. Throw it in the bin.
BUT ownership needs/needed vastly stronger controls. Too late now. But...
Nation states should not own British football clubs. US corporate multi-sport entities should not own British football clubs. Chinese, Far East billionaire speculators should not own British football clubs. Non-dom Bond villains should not own British football clubs. I'm sorry but Malaysian shipping magnets should not own British football clubs.
British football invited vast nation state-sized wealth into its sport, people with zero attachment to the clubs, but - for whatever reason in each case - a keen need to win. Then it imposed spending limits on them. If anyone thinks that Abu Dhabi alone flaunted what they deem these piddling restrictions is in for a shock.
The PL will be forced to impose huge sanctions if this document stands up as it can be read - shell companies with AI stock photos for CEOs, etc. But the Abu Dhabi royal family and men like Al Mubarak, Shiek Mansour are not going to meekly accept humiliation. They will not accept defeat. They're embedded in Britain, especially in Burnham's Manchester. Watching that Soriano video would no doubt have shaken the PL...it could get very dark, very quickly.
It's not just about Man City. I think it's potentially existential for the Premier League.
"Owners should spend what they wish. FFP/PSR is a racket designed just to protect the top three or four clubs"
If that's the case then the fans need to accept that. No bitchin' or whining about a "Blackburn' or a 'QPR' or a 'Wrexham' and so on. The thing is though, they will.
0
Man City - GUILTY on 18:33 - Sep 30 with 807 views
"Owners should spend what they wish. FFP/PSR is a racket designed just to protect the top three or four clubs"
If that's the case then the fans need to accept that. No bitchin' or whining about a "Blackburn' or a 'QPR' or a 'Wrexham' and so on. The thing is though, they will.
Most fans would be jealous of teams that are successful,but teams like Wrexham and Birmingham are benefiting from rich and high profile owners whereas others are handicapped by the existing rules on FFP,or whatever it’s called these days. We had some of the richest owners around,but they couldn’t spend what they wanted after splashing oodles of money to get us promoted twice. It’s either a level playing field or it’s not,but at least be consistent on it.Thats all most fans ask.
0
Man City - GUILTY on 18:40 - Sep 30 with 783 views
It would've been hidden if their emails hadn't been hacked. The hack is the key element here. None of this comes out otherwise and the PL would not have investigated after the last CAS hearing win for City.
On that point, I feel a bit for them. As Medway R states, compare the way they've run City to the way Man U have been run in the same period: Man U £1bn in debt with a failing team, leaking roofs, protests from fans at their ill-treatment, redundancies of long-serving staff to cut costs, still massively over-spending £75m on Sesko etc to no avail ...Man City have rejuvenated the entire area, provided 100s of new jobs, rebuilt infrastructure, remodelled football, won dozens of trophies, comfortably in the black...
They face generational sanctions; Man United, carry on lads, you may win something real now again. Man City cheated, but they only got caught because of a hack. Imagine what we'd find in everyone else's emails. Let's have a look at the details of the transfers between Chelsea and Villa, for starters.
There's another point I've seen made today that let's say QPR get to the Premier League, and let's say I as a fan want to give them £50m to put Loftforwords.co.uk as the front shirt sponsor (Patreon's had a good month). I'm not allowed to do it, because it's not "fair market rate". But if I want to give Man Utd £50m to put it on their shirt, that would be fine.
5
Man City - GUILTY on 18:42 - Sep 30 with 767 views
There's another point I've seen made today that let's say QPR get to the Premier League, and let's say I as a fan want to give them £50m to put Loftforwords.co.uk as the front shirt sponsor (Patreon's had a good month). I'm not allowed to do it, because it's not "fair market rate". But if I want to give Man Utd £50m to put it on their shirt, that would be fine.
Didn’t Chansiri basically do that at Wednesday but it was benchmarked as being a fair value so the EFL were fine with it?
The PM has come out to defend them. Shocking!! (Source is sky sports news)
Prime Minister Andy Burnham says he would be “really concerned" if Manchester City's owners decide to sell up after the club was found guilty of Premier League financial rule breaches. Burnham also said it would be wrong to “leap to judgment” about Man City, and he is confident his dealings with the club while mayor of Greater Manchester stand up to scrutiny. He said the club, found guilty of charges related to breaches of financial rules between 2009/10 and 2017/18, should be able to “contest the situation if they don’t think it’s fair”. The Prime Minister thanked City Football Group – the club’s holding company – for the money it had invested into Manchester, but said he would “keep my distance” should the United Arab Emirates government make representations to him over the dispute. Asked if he was worried about them selling the club, he told the BBC: “I would be really concerned to lose them. They’ve been such a huge partner in the building of modern Manchester. “Obviously, the building of Manchester City into the global force that it is.”
0
Man City - GUILTY on 19:46 - Sep 30 with 617 views
The PM has come out to defend them. Shocking!! (Source is sky sports news)
Prime Minister Andy Burnham says he would be “really concerned" if Manchester City's owners decide to sell up after the club was found guilty of Premier League financial rule breaches. Burnham also said it would be wrong to “leap to judgment” about Man City, and he is confident his dealings with the club while mayor of Greater Manchester stand up to scrutiny. He said the club, found guilty of charges related to breaches of financial rules between 2009/10 and 2017/18, should be able to “contest the situation if they don’t think it’s fair”. The Prime Minister thanked City Football Group – the club’s holding company – for the money it had invested into Manchester, but said he would “keep my distance” should the United Arab Emirates government make representations to him over the dispute. Asked if he was worried about them selling the club, he told the BBC: “I would be really concerned to lose them. They’ve been such a huge partner in the building of modern Manchester. “Obviously, the building of Manchester City into the global force that it is.”
Agree with that from Burnham. There is too much leaping to judgement especially so when City are denying the charges and saying they will appeal.
0
Man City - GUILTY on 19:47 - Sep 30 with 609 views
The PM has come out to defend them. Shocking!! (Source is sky sports news)
Prime Minister Andy Burnham says he would be “really concerned" if Manchester City's owners decide to sell up after the club was found guilty of Premier League financial rule breaches. Burnham also said it would be wrong to “leap to judgment” about Man City, and he is confident his dealings with the club while mayor of Greater Manchester stand up to scrutiny. He said the club, found guilty of charges related to breaches of financial rules between 2009/10 and 2017/18, should be able to “contest the situation if they don’t think it’s fair”. The Prime Minister thanked City Football Group – the club’s holding company – for the money it had invested into Manchester, but said he would “keep my distance” should the United Arab Emirates government make representations to him over the dispute. Asked if he was worried about them selling the club, he told the BBC: “I would be really concerned to lose them. They’ve been such a huge partner in the building of modern Manchester. “Obviously, the building of Manchester City into the global force that it is.”
There's another point I've seen made today that let's say QPR get to the Premier League, and let's say I as a fan want to give them £50m to put Loftforwords.co.uk as the front shirt sponsor (Patreon's had a good month). I'm not allowed to do it, because it's not "fair market rate". But if I want to give Man Utd £50m to put it on their shirt, that would be fine.
Thats very good of you to donate £50 million of your hard earned cash for the Rangers' cause Clive. However, are you ok for us to wear the black hoops with your "Loftforwords" logo barely visible ? And does the invisible logo mean the £50 million can be hidden away in the accounts, as well. Therefore, no rules broken !!
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